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Per-Encounter Powers

Balesir

Adventurer
Classic D&D also has rules for searching which interact with the time rules. Movement + searching - what else would a game need?
Rules for longer-timescale stealth, rules for careful observation (i.e. scouting and intelligence gathering against "live targets", plus laying ambushes and coordinating pre-combat movement), rules for social interaction (how to get from a potentially hostile standoff to a more protracted negotiation or discussion), rules for overcoming obstacles (rivers, cliffs, breakins and so on) in the timescale of minutes, rules for communicating and coordinating within the "party" (a group does not simply spontaneously start enacting a plan or scheme, even after the basic idea has been fleshed out - it takes a fair bit of wrangling to get everyone "on message"!) and so on.

I really think there is as much in the "tactical" sense to these sorts of situations as there is to combat. In fact, I think it would be possible, purely from a game point of view, to have a seriously tactical game where the actual combat was simply a matter of one die roll per side (with modifiers based on the lead up to the actual fight), where the stakes for combat, as well as the conditions and relative advantages for each side, were set in the pre-combat "moves".
 

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slobo777

First Post
I really think there is as much in the "tactical" sense to these sorts of situations as there is to combat. In fact, I think it would be possible, purely from a game point of view, to have a seriously tactical game where the actual combat was simply a matter of one die roll per side (with modifiers based on the lead up to the actual fight), where the stakes for combat, as well as the conditions and relative advantages for each side, were set in the pre-combat "moves".

I would play that game.

I'm not convinced that is where D&D 5E is heading. I think we might see a variant on 4E's skill challenges. Never know, they might make them a bit less experimental, maybe provide a few example frameworks ("wilderness chase", "stake the joint", "intrigue at the castle"). I found them somewhat slippery in actual play, as opposed to just making stuff up on each roll.
 

pemerton

Legend
[MENTION=27160]Balesir[/MENTION], no disagreement from me - the comment you quoted was made ironically (I took it as obvious that movement + searching is not enough for anything but a very tedious dungeon crawl game).
 

Balesir

Adventurer
I'm not convinced that is where D&D 5E is heading. I think we might see a variant on 4E's skill challenges. Never know, they might make them a bit less experimental, maybe provide a few example frameworks ("wilderness chase", "stake the joint", "intrigue at the castle"). I found them somewhat slippery in actual play, as opposed to just making stuff up on each roll.
I find that skill challenges as presented are not "complete" as a system, I agree. I know of two approaches to them:

1) The approach I use is to simply divide the challenge task into one "sub-objective" per "success" needed (conversely, if I can think of N sub-objectives, then (N/2 - 1) is the complexity of the challenge). An example would be a negotiation with a dragon:

Task 1 = persuade the dragon not to eat you immediately(!)
Task 2 = uncover the dragon's situation/grievances
Task 3 = discover what the dragon can do for you
Task 4 = convince the dragon that you are capable of taking on the creatures that plague him
Task 5 = persuade the dragon that a deal is a good idea
Task 6 = agree terms for the deal in detail

These don't all have to be done in order, although (1) has to be done first!

2) The approach I understand [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] to use (please correct me if I'm wrong) is similar to Bob McKee's outline for generating "Story" in his eponymous book:

- establish what the aims of the party are; what stakes are they trying to win (in a "Story" sense, what is their immediate "dramatic need")
- put plausible obstacles in the way of them achieving that objective; these should be specific difficulties that require either one specific character or a combination or choice of characters to test a skill or ability.
- continue placing such obstacles until either (a) an insoluble obstacle (presented after 2 failures have already been made) is failed, or (b) sufficient obstacles are overcome to complete the challenge.

[MENTION=27160]Balesir[/MENTION], no disagreement from me - the comment you quoted was made ironically (I took it as obvious that movement + searching is not enough for anything but a very tedious dungeon crawl game).
Ah, sorry - I had a failure of my humour filter! The perils of text communication... In a way, I think movement + searching was (almost) enough for D&D as originally conceived - that part of the system just never expanded alongside the rest of the game.
 

pemerton

Legend
The approach I understand pemerton to use (please correct me if I'm wrong) is similar to Bob McKee's outline for generating "Story" in his eponymous book:

- establish what the aims of the party are; what stakes are they trying to win (in a "Story" sense, what is their immediate "dramatic need")
- put plausible obstacles in the way of them achieving that objective; these should be specific difficulties that require either one specific character or a combination or choice of characters to test a skill or ability.
- continue placing such obstacles until either (a) an insoluble obstacle (presented after 2 failures have already been made) is failed, or (b) sufficient obstacles are overcome to complete the challenge.
I don't know the book you refer to, but what you say is basically it, with one exception - the stake can actually change over the course of the challenge, as the complications that are introduced in response to the skill checks change the players' (and therefore the PCs') orientation towards the fiction.

Related to this - I'll often have a general sense of some of the key obstacles at the time when I frame the scene, but will tend to work out the details, plus add things in or change what I had planned in response to how the situation actually plays out in the hands of the players.

What is key - and what I think you have got right - is that the obstacles/complications are introduced drawing not just on extrapolation from previous ingame events, but in the interests of keeping the situation alive - until we get to the final check needed, when the definitive obstacle can be posed. This can be hard to GM, but I've found it produces rich and satisfying encounters with unexpected and plot-and-campaign-deepening resolutions.

And just for the hell of it, I'm going to post my favourite Paul Czege quote which is probably the pithiest piece of advice I've used to help me run skill challenges (I've also drawn on Maelstrom Storytelling, HeroWars/Quest, and Burning Wheel):

There are two points to a scene - Point A, where the PCs start the scene, and Point B, where they end up. Most games let the players control some aspect of Point A, and then railroad the PCs to point B. Good narrativism will reverse that by letting the GM create a compelling Point A, and let the players dictate what Point B is (ie, there is no Point B prior to the scene beginning).​

. . . [A]lthough roleplaying games typically feature scene transition, by "scene framing" we're talking about a subset of scene transition that features a different kind of intentionality. My personal inclination is to call the traditional method "scene extrapolation," because the details of the Point A of scenes initiated using the method are typically arrived at primarily by considering the physics of the game world, what has happened prior to the scene, and the unrevealed actions and aspirations of characters that only the GM knows about.

"Scene framing" is a very different mental process for me. Tim asked if scene transitions were delicate. They aren't. Delicacy is a trait I'd attach to "scene extrapolation," the idea being to make scene initiation seem an outgrowth of prior events, objective, unintentional, non-threatening, but not to the way I've come to frame scenes in games I've run recently. . . [W]hen I'm framing scenes, and I'm in the zone, I'm turning a freakin' firehose of adversity and situation on the character. It is not an objective outgrowth of prior events. It's intentional as all get out. . . I frame the character into the middle of conflicts I think will push and pull in ways that are interesting to me and to the player. I keep NPC personalities somewhat unfixed in my mind, allowing me to retroactively justify their behaviors in support of this. And like Scott's "Point A to Point B" model says, the outcome of the scene is not preconceived.​

My 4e game is, I suspect, pretty light-hearted compared to Czege's game. But his technique - especially of eschewing extrapolation and "delicacy" in favour of deliberately pushing and pulling so as to make things interesting and force the players to make choices for their PCs - I think is as applicable to a light-hearted fantasy game as to something like My Life With Master.
 

ren1999

First Post
How about this idea.

Prayers and Spells are divided into 2 groups
at-will powers
and
encounter burst or render-target-helpless powers

Characters start with the ability to cast 1 encounter power per encounter.
Every 5th level they can cast an additional encounter power.

Or we could just say that a player can only cast one encounter power per encounter.

Or we could lower the damage of burst powers.
We could give the target many saves to break the helpless condition.
That way every power could be at-will.

This is how it might work.

The wizard casts Fire Ball doing 1d6+int mod+3 ongoing fire damage
The wizard casts Explosive Rune at a burst of 1. Each target in the burst area would take 3 fire damage or some limited number like that.

It would be a trade-off, number of targets versus greater damage. That way both 1 target and burst target spells can be all at-will.

There should be no burst sleep spells anymore. Only 1 target should be rendered helpless and then give that target many chances to save and break out of that helplessness.
 
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Balesir

Adventurer
I don't know the book you refer to, but what you say is basically it, with one exception - the stake can actually change over the course of the challenge, as the complications that are introduced in response to the skill checks change the players' (and therefore the PCs') orientation towards the fiction.
OK, sure, dramatic need can mutate. The book is called "[ame="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Story-Substance-Structure-Principles-Screenwriting/dp/0413715604/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top"]Story[/ame]" and it's worth a read - it's about screenwriting, but Nar gaming is close to that anyway ;)
 

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