D&D 5E Perform Skill & Instrument Proficiency redundancy

[Davinshe]

It seems like the creators tried to stop the various tool proficiencies from overlapping with skills, but one area where a redundancy does exist is with instrument proficiencies and the perform skill. The perform skill seems to make you proficient with all instruments and thus eliminates the need for instrument proficiency.

Oddly, this means the bard, the class that should be the most likely to take perform, really doesn't need it since they gain three instrument proficiencies automatically which would be rendered redundant if they choose the perform skill (now admittedly, a bard who wants to perform in ways other than instruments could use perform, but it's going to be very seldom when the ability to sing or perform puppetry will solve a problem that playing an instrument could not.)

I almost feel like there should be an exception and you can add double your proficiency bonus if you both have the perform skill and are proficient with the musical instrument in question.

 

[Paraxis]

Medicine skill and healer's kit is pretty redundant too.

I still think tool proficiencies are one of the worst things about this edition they just don't make any sense, have disable device instead of thieve's tools for example, no reason to make tools a separate thing at all.

 

[Juriel]

Yeah, the tool proficiencies are a horrible idea, executed badly.

You have skills already, why introduce some bloody not-skill skills?

 

[evilbob]

My guess is that it's the difference between a super-broad and cannot be easily obtained "skill" vs. a much more narrow and more easily obtained "tool" proficiency. In other words: yes, taking "perform" means you don't need 3 instrument proficiencies. The reverse isn't true. But you can learn a lute a lot easier than you can get "perform" proficiency.

Just a guess.

 

[DreamChaser]

To me, if you cannot practice something with just yourself (and perhaps a source of info), it really can't be a skill. If it relies upon something outside you every time, it is a tool.

For example, to me open locks and disable device being based on a tool also makes sense....you can't practice picking a lock without lock pics (manufactured or improvised). Your fingers just won't work. Stealth being a skill makes sense. You can attempt to hide any time. You don't need a "stealth kit" to do it.

Along the same vein, I would not permit Perform to be used with an instrument without the proficiency. Vocal song? Sure. Using it as a prop? Okay. Actually playing it and intending to sound good? Nope.

The skill reads "...how well you can delight an audience with music, dance, acting..." but it does not specify instrumental music.

I would permit a person who is proficient in flute to make a trained check to perform (proficiency bonus either way) even if they were not trained.

I know skilled instrumentalists who are crappy all around performers but can impress just cause they're good. I also know skilled performers who have never touched an instrument in their lives.

 

[SilverfireSage]

I agree with most of what's been said here. To me, it's like having proficiency in a weapon, and being strong. Any person that's strong can bludgeon someone to death, but to actually fight you need to have training in a weapon. To do something that at a base level requires no training (i.e. singing, acting, etc) you can use the perform skill. For more particular things that you couldn't learn in the span of a few moments, that requires proficiency (i.e. any instrument, marionettes, applying disguises, etc.).

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Performance is about putting on an entertaining performance--it is generally Charisma based. Using a musical instrument proficiency is about about technical expertise with the tool, it is generally Dexterity based. (See the Dexterity check section for where I'm getting that).

One using the perform skill can make use of instruments that are not technically proficient in during an act, but they aren't going to focus the act around it. They are going to be primarily singing, or telling jokes, or otherwise entertaining, while using their instrument to provide a bit of accompaniment. A minstrel telling stories, singing songs, and strumming a lute at appropriate places.

One using the perform skill and making using of an instrument that they are proficient in will be able to put on a really good show, combining force of personality with technical expertise. A really good lead guitarist who can put on awesome solos.

Using only an instrument (not the perform skill) wouldn't be about you directly connecting with the audience and working the crowd (as the perform skill is about). It is just you and your instrument. Imagine a musician in a symphony, or a harpist putting on a concert.

In general, the perform skill is superior (as skills are supposed to be, and as indicated by how well of a living you can make with it in the downtime rules), but musical instruments definitely have their usefulness. A musical "duel" for instance would use your Dexterity and instrument proficiency, rather than your Charisma (Performance), as might an attempt to impress someone with the pure beauty of your rendition of a piece of music.

 

[Atomo]

It is interesting how different people have different oppinions of things. For me, tool proficiencies are one of the most awesome ideas of 5e. I really love them.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

Tool proficiencies also make it easier to customize the game world. If I'm playing Spelljammer or whatever I don't have to go decide whether rogues can get Piloting as a class skill; I can just make "spaceships" tools you can be proficient in. (And less radically, medieval technology like siege engines, chariots, calligraphy brushes, etc.)

Musical instrument, like disguise kits, sort of blur the line with the skill system, but that might be unavoidable. As DM I'd be pretty loose on any distinction between the two.

 

[Juriel]

As long as players know ahead of time that a Background that gives tool proficiencies is less valuable than one that gives direct skills.

You can pick up any tool prof with a few hundred gold if you have a year to spend. Which people should do after their first adventure?