Permanant Character Death

[Holy Bovine]

Re: It's me...

I am the player (one of them anyway) in question.

I had worked on this character forever, developing a great background story and personality, and looking forward to becoming an Archmage (She was 10th level). We have never played anything higher than 10th level and I was really looking forward to it.

My character was kidnapped by this lich and the rest of the group had to come to my rescue. They had to get through 3 levels of Undermountain, fighting all kinds of new stuff from the Fiend Folio. At the end they fought a stone golem and the lich, until it took off. As rjmc64 said it was a big climatic battle and three of us didn't make it. So the other three of us were badly hurt and bringing the rest of the party out to be resurrected.

Around the corner is a gelatinous cube. One of us walks into it accidentally, me and the other gal roll ones before we have a chance to do anything, are paralyzed and that's it. The whole party is now dead.

It was anticlimactic to say the least. For some of us, it was our favorite characters. It was cheesy and yes, I was bothered. It wasn't fun and I was under the impression that was what this game is about. I have enough drama in my real life.

As a long time DM I have to say if this was a wandering monster than that was a pretty bad way to end a campaign and I can understand Queenie's bitterness.

Look at it this way - the PC's had faced the Lich and Golem and forced them to retreat. They had won. Then they get ambushed by a Gelatenious Cube and bam end of campaign.

All I can say is - blargh.

That is, honestly, a poor way to stage an encounter. Even i spot and/or listen checks were used to do something like this to established PCs is a little on the lame side (and I am not trying to flame/insult or judge rjmc64, this is my own personal opinion on how I might handle this, please do not take this personally). I'm not saying long-time PCs are immune to death but to go out like this? It would leave bitter taste in my mouth I know.

So there is something "wrong" with me because I'm upset my character died and I should grow up or I shouldn't play anymore or whatever. But everyone wants me to keep playing and accept this is what happens and just deal with it. Why should I continue to do something that isn't fun?
~Queenie

Sometimes there are opportunities within things like this. If you honestly aren't having fun, and can't see the game being fun in the future then, sadly, you might want to quit. But as I said there are chances to grow this out into another campaign. Did any of the now dead PCs have relatives? Wouldn't they wonder what had happened to thier loved ones. Even a distant cousin or aunt could have heard of the deaths of her niece/cousin/whatever and decide to investigate. Those are the characters I would let the players use. And let them make up their stats , equipment etc based on regular rules (probably not start at 1st level though - I would take them way too long to ever find out what happened to the first group of PCs - I would suggest 8th level. Just far enough behind the first group that an andventure or two might be in order to figure new stats and abilities). I wouldhate for you, Queenie, to stop playing because of this bad experience - but a quest to rescue the dead PCs might be able to set things right. Hope you keep playing and don't let the naysayers and negativity put you off RPGs forever.

 

[Jeremy757]

How appropriate this thread is for me. My character which I have been playing for going on two years now died last night. He was a Cleric12 of Moridin/Fighter2. He was a force to be reckoned with. But unfortunately alignment issues came into play. I was involved in a hostage situation and I along with a couple of other PC's were forced to surrender to the hostage takers. Why we waited for the rest of our party to rescue us I was tortured. The rest of the party showed up to our rescue but weren't fast enough and the bad guys thugs put me out of my misery along with one other PC. It was a bitter end to say the least, but I can say that it was all true to my character's "character". And that's what matters more then anything. But if your character dies through happenstance I can understand how that would leave a sour feeling, but its an adventurers life, never take any corner or tile in a dungeon for granted. The second you do your playing a different character.

Now I will move on. Here comes my Dwarvin Paladin 8/Figher2/Dwarvin Defender 2

 

[Brekke]

Brekke...

I am not referring to prohibiting raise dead or ressurection, etc. In my original post I say that I do allow all of those things. In this case however it was at total party kill. The entire party was killed over a series of two encounters. And the bodies should have been dissolved by a gelatinous cube. This is really the only time I considered having PC death permanent.
I would have considered having another party go in after the bodies but there shouldn't even be bodies to go after... that is basically why I decided to call it the end of the road for these PCs.
Understand my dilema?

I do understand. I was mainly responding to some of the other posts.

There have been some good ideas I like the idea of them being brought back by a powerful cleric whoses God has plans for them and theyn have no choice about fulfilling the plans because of geas.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Now, I do agree the dying to a gel cube is kinda sad (in a pathetic hillarious way, not a remorse-ridden sorrowful way). Generally, that's one of those monsters I've never used just by merit of its own conceptual silliness. But, what's done is done. In short, I agree with what was said earlier: Roll a new character and get back to having fun.

As to the following question:

Why should I continue to do something that isn't fun?

Is feeling that your character is safe, sound and will never have anything negative happen to him/her/it really fun? Personally, I would find it absolutely boring knowing that no matter what, I'll be protected from an idea as offensive as "character death".

I've been running the same game for 6 years now, and some of the characters have lasted the entire time. However, the Players also know that in any encounter a character can die and that's just the way it is. I'm a stickler for permanent death, as I find that the tactics of playing ("How to beat the BBEG without getting ourselves roasted" vs "Rush in and raise anyone that gets whacked") are more condusive to a more challenging (and thus more enjoyable) experience for us. We were generally stiffer than 1E/2E was about it "back in the day", to the point of rolling in painful laughter when we saw 3E's take on it (when 4 out of 4 people say "not at my table", that generally ends the issue).

That one of my players has (finally) started GMing and has the same approach to character death is a relief to me. I've tried playing in other games with the standard rules, and after a while I'd start to feel over-magicked and totally pampered by the "powers that be". Ended up leaving the games for lack of enjoyment (after the fifth time hearing "I'll charge the [BBEG]... If I die, you [points at Cleric] can bring me back," I couldn't take it any more).

Anyhow, just the way I play it. YMMV, of course.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

As a DM, I'd stick with the decision for the characters to remain dead. Sometimes these things happen. I mean, I understand about losing characters you put a lot of work into - as a player in the late 1e era, I had an elven cavalier that ended up dead simply because he had the bad fortune to run into a band of giant trolls (without any way to make fire, by the way). I loved that character, but there was no way to logically bring him back, even with the DM and I trying to rationalize ways to do it. As a player, I think I'd also be in favor of keeping them dead - anticlimactic, yeah, but it's a classic D&D story. I mean, the gelatinous cube is one of those undersung critters from the very beginning of D&D - losing PCs to one is almost an honor ! It'll make the survival of furture characters even more exciting, by lending an air of danger to the game.

 

[BSF]

Boy, this is a tough situation. Where do I weigh in? What advice can I offer? Interesting quandry.

Permanent Death:
I have permanent Death in my campaign. So long as you have a soul, you can come back from the dead. However, I do have some affects that can destroy your soul. This is what my characters fear the most. Though, it may be for different reasons.

Since I make my own homebrew campaign, I have my own Gods. Including the favorite among Paladins: Pter the Crusader/Pter the Protector. Pter even invests some of his followers with additional powers. They can take the High Knight of Pter PrC. Now, HKoP's tend to have a short life expectancy. As an involuntary Supernatural affect, all evil creatures tend to pick HKoP's as the favored target in combat. (Now, this does not mean that all combatants immediately unload on the HKoP. But, the strongest baddies tend to single them out.) The character that is a HKoP keeps his ear out for any stories of the fate of other HKoP's. If he hears that one has fallen, he tries to find out what happened to the soul. Not to Raise it, to make sure it passed on to Pter's Realm. The character's fear is that when he dies, his soul will be devoured/destroyed and he will not pass to Pter's Realm. So, my version of Permanent Death has a ripple affect through your entire afterlife. It is effective as the player's know there is permanent death and treat encounters as serious risks.

Effectively Permanent Death:
There are also situations in which death is effectively permanent. When a character dies but nobody can afford to bring them back, they might as well be permanently dead. When a character dies, but would not be willing to come back (You must be willing to be brought back.), they are effectively permanently dead. When a character died and the party does not have the body and and is not able to "unambiguously identify the deceased in some fashion" death is effectively permanent.

Though a sufficiently motivated party can get around most of these limitations. Divination spells, offers to perform quests, etc. The big one is when the character would not want to come back. I have had players choose that route because it would be consistent with the character ... regardless of the investment in the character.

Adventuring Death:
Hey! It's a dangerous job. People die and there are ways to come back from the dead. Grab the deceased, head to town, bring them back. A DnD staple and I support it all the way. My players use it. Heck, the Cleric can cast Raise Dead!

Less than heroic Death: I will let bad die rolls stand for death. That is part of the game. Heck, in my current campaign, one of the characters has died multiple times from making himself the favored target at the wrong time. (One example: Big Baddie retreats to it's lair with a Mighty Composite Longbow and is pretty much going to attack the first PC that sticks his head in the cave. The sorceror, who had previously lightning bolted the BBG, tosses a light stone into the cave while walking past the group of PC's discussing strategy, and enters as far as he can. BBG has his init come up and rolls a 20. A crit on the sorceror with 13 HP left. End result, 23 damage and the sorceror is dead, arrow to the head. Everyone else wanted to know why he rushed in while they were planning outside.) Missing the reflex save and falling down the obligatory pit can kill you. Wearing your armor, while on a boat and falling overboard, and then drowning can definitely kill you! If your buddies want to bring you back, so be it. But, I avoid a permanent death for most of these situations. In my games, the really stupid risks "just because you can be raised is not a problem". The other characters don't like spending their precious diamonds on a dumb mistake. But, they will do it for bad luck. It's pretty much peer pressure. "If you die because you are too stupid to take off your full plate while on a river boat, we won't bring you back." Besides, anything less than a True Ressurection also slaps you with a level penalty. So, I am not entirely sure why other people have problems with player's "taking stupid risks just because they can be raised and there are no consequences."

Does it make death "Cheap"? Maybe. But I do have a Permanent Death option and nobody has any idea how to get around that. Not even the Gods will talk about it. So, my players have a good dose of rational fear as well.

So, that's how I weigh in on the Permanent Death question. But, I will keep up my commentary in regards to rjmc64's specific situation, the TPK by a rather ignoble beastie.

The death by Gelatinous Cube thing would kind of bug me too. They were on the way out and a few bad die rolls made for a TPK. Yeah, bad luck happens. But, there is an unsatisfactory feeling to this particular type of death. I don't want to second guess rjmc64, or even criticize. The characters had completed the big challenge and basically died to an "attrittion factor". I like attrition and my player's have learned to look out for it. When they start to see signs of attrition, they get worried. But, this is just a gelatinous cube. They won the war and then lost the battle to a big square of jello. So yeah, I can see where there might be some disgruntlement.

And that is the key right there. The players might be disgruntled. Do you like the characters? Do you like the players? Do you like the campaign? If you are saying "yes", then you should probably "fix" this problem. I suppose you could say that the encounter didn't happen, nothing to see here, please move along. But, why not build on the story instead? Right now might be a great time to try out the Ghostwalk rules if you have them. Or, do as some have suggested and move the game to the spirit realm. The characters may be dead, by they aren't gone!

Maybe there is a spirit realm where the Tower of Life exists. Normally the raising spells guide the deceased past the defenses. Maybe the defenses are guardians that have certain demands to get past them. One wants a bit of life force (the level sacrifice for being raised). One might demand that you can prove you were alive (usually done by having the remains available for raising). Now, the PC's have to get into the Tower and bypass the guardians. Perhaps it could be through a spiritual combat, perhaps through wits and wordplay, perhaps sheer diplomacy and force of personality, whatever challenges you want. Perhaps the characters have to agree to becomes servants of Death. Reassuring those that are afraid that death is just part of the cycle. How do they know? Well, they were dead...

Or, maybe the characters are dead, but they can still communicate in dreams. Maybe they can contact an important NPC and convince the NPC that they should be raised. Perhaps in exchange for service to the NPC.

There are a lot of possibilities and I would probably pick one of these in this particular situation. It could be a quick RP encounter over the course of a single night, or over several sessions. Depening on what you and your players want. The keys for me would be to not trivialize the accomplishment of "beating" the Lich, not trivialing the death (even if it came about from a Gelatinous Cube), and making sure that character growth and development can be worked into the process. Of course, that is just me. It's your campaign!

 

[Celtavian]

re

It may be only an RPG, but dead is dead. Leave'em dead. That is what happens to adventurers sometimes, they die and are lost from annals of adventuring greatness. Let them lie. Start a new campaign with a new group of characters. On occasion reminisce. about the old ones.

 

[Imperialus]

A situation simmilar to this led to one of the only times I hit the rewind button in a campaign. The party I was DMing had just bashed their way though a very long and complicated dungon at the tail end of a campaign to kill a Necromancer Archmage and destroy Ashracks Heart a very powerful homebrewed artifact that had allowed the Necromancer to get as powerful as he was. All but two of the party had died in the battle but they had suceeded in their mission and were fleeing out of the collapseing tower when they set off a trap.

To be fair the only survivors were a fighter and the party's only mage so I couldn't have expected them to find and disable the trap even if the building hadn't been collapseing around them. I figured it was a simple enough trap, a mere spiked pit and though the fighter fell in he managed to catch the edge. The mage bent over to help lift him out and proceeded to roll a natural 1 on his STR check followed by a natural 1 on his... Rod/Staff/Wand (I think that's what it was, whichever was the "Reflex" save in second ed) check. They both fell into the pit and died. I looked over at the mage's player who was still stareing stunned at his second 1 in a row and said. "You know, lets pretend this is your Str check" and gave the die a nudge so that the 20 was on top.

It didn't matter anyhow, the campaign was over, the characters were all between 15th and 17th level, had just killed the big bad, restored peace and order to the world and so on and so forth. All they really had to be alive for was their triumphent return to the capitol city and the ability to live out the rest of their lives as NPC's talking about the "good old days" while getting more and more overweight. I wasn't about to deny my players that.

 

[shoplifter]

. The mage bent over to help lift him out and proceeded to roll a natural 1 on his STR check

Wasn't that what you WANTED when you made a STR check? It WAS a roll-under mechanic, after all..

 

[Imperialus]

right... it was wasn't it? Sorry it's been too damn long since I played 2nd ed.