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Permanent Emanation and Extraordinary Spell Aim

Rkhet

First Post
Tenacious Magic:

TENACIOUS MAGIC [EPIC]

Prerequisites: Spellcraft 15 ranks.

Benefit: Choose one spell the character knows or spell-like ability the character possesses. Whenever <...> the magic is instead only suppressed for 1d4 rounds.

You still have to cast the spell to get the benefit, however. Or is there a difference between 'choose' and 'designate'?
 

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Rkhet

First Post
It can be dispelled. The feat makes provisions: the effect comes back after 2d4 rounds. Also, unlike normal spells, which requires a standard action to dismiss, this requires only a free action. Further more, once dismissed, you can call it back as a free action.
 

Thanee

First Post
Why did you leave out that part?

Choose one spell the character knows or spell-like ability the character possesses. Whenever the chosen form of magic would otherwise end due to a dispel effect, the magic is instead only suppressed for 1d4 rounds.

Choose and designate is no difference, I think. The difference is the part you left out. In order to have a magic end due to a dispel effect, it must first be active. Since the feat does not activate it, unlike the Permanent Emanation, you would cast/use it normally and then, if it was ended, Tenacious Magic would take effect. It changes the spell or spell-like ability!

Permanent Emanation does not change the spell. It gives you a permanent effect.

It can be dispelled.

I know that.

The feat makes provisions: the effect comes back after 2d4 rounds. Also, unlike normal spells, which requires a standard action to dismiss, this requires only a free action. Further more, once dismissed, you can call it back as a free action.

Yes, what I meant is, that these provisions are only really necessary, because you *cannot cast* the permanent spell, that's not what the feat does; it does not change the duration of a spell you cast, it gives you a permanent effect. You therefore *need* other means to keep it active.

If you don't like the answer, because what you thought up doesn't work, that's not my fault. ;)

Bye
Thanee
 

Rkhet

First Post
I don't like the answer because it is not what the RAW says, personally.

Permanent Emanation does not change the spell. It gives you a permanent effect.

That is what the whole of the argument is about. I'd like to see you back that up. Nowhere in the description of Permanent Emanation does it say 'this feat activates said spell'. All it says is 'the spell's effect is permanent'. And indeed it is - once it is activated.

Yes, what I meant is, that these provisions are only really necessary, because you *cannot cast* the permanent spell, that's not what the feat does; it does not change the duration of a spell you cast, it gives you a permanent effect. You therefore *need* other means to keep it active.

However, this would also make sense if the feat only modifies the spell. It means you will never need to cast it again. There is certainly advantages to this. I suppose your point is that the author intended it to work this way - but that is not what I am looking for.
 






Cheiromancer

Adventurer
I think the word "spell" is ambiguous here. From more abstract to more concrete it can mean something that is on a character's spell list, or that's among a character's spells known, or that a character has prepared, or that a character has cast. Only when a spell is cast can it be interacted with.

Rkhet's interpretation seems to be that it is the abstract spell that is modified by the Permanent Emanation feat, and that for it to have tangible effect the spell must be cast. Thanee's interpretation is that the Permanent Emanation feat directly produces a concrete effect.

Say that I am an epic level cleric. Antilife shell is on my spell list, and there are no restrictions (like alignment subtypes) preventing me from casting it. In fact I have never cast it, but it is a spell I can cast, and so when I take the Permanent Emanation feat I can designate antilife shell as the spell modified by the feat.

Suppose I have done that. Do I now have an antilife shell radiating from me? Rkhet argues that no, I don't. The feat has modified the abstract spell for me (making it permanent and tenacious) but that doesn't do me any good unless I cast it. It is as if I researched a permanent form of antilife shell that I can dismiss and restart at will. My research modifies the spell on my list so that it has different properties, but it won't do me any good if I don't cast it. Rkhet's interpretation of the feat is that it modifies an emanation spell so that it has different properties; it is permanent, tenacious, and it can be dismissed or restarted at will. However, like the researched spell it doesn't do me any good until I cast it. I have to cast the spell first. Later on I can dismiss it and then cast it again. His question is whether I can then modify the AoE, at these subsequent castings, with Extraordinary Spell Aim.

Thanee's position is that the Permanent Emanation feat gives you a permanent emanation based on one of the spells you know. What emanation it is depends on the kinds of spells you can cast; you choose one spell you can cast that produces a permanent emanation when you choose the feat; the effect of the feat is that it comes into effect around you. You don't have to cast it; rather, taking the feat makes a instance of the spell come into being around you.

The key phrase is "This spell’s effect is permanent". One reading is that this applies to the abstract spell, which still has to be cast in order to have any effects. The other reading is that the feat brings into being a permanent spell effect. It is a concrete reading of the spell effect, not an abstract reading.

The problem is, what sense of spell does the previous sentence employ? "Designate any one of the character’s spells whose area is an emanation from the character. "

Read in a concrete way, it means that the spell has to be in effect when the feat is taken. There has to be an actual antilife shell currently emanating from the character in order to take the feat. Does anyone think that? Or is the abstract reading the correct one, that says that you look for a spell that the character can cast (even if he has never cast that spell) and see if it would make an emanation centered on that character?

There are equally valid rules of interpretation that can be applied here. One says that you should stick with an interpretation; if a spell is abstract in one sentence, it should be abstract in the second. I think that's Rkhet's rule. Another rule is that if something can be interpreted as concrete, that's what you should do. And since a concrete reading of the first sentence is impossible (it would require the choice of a feat to be taken at a particular moment in time, which isn't how feat choices are understood to take place), the first sentence has to be interpreted abstractly. But the second sentence can be interpreted concretely, so that is what you should do.

I wouldn't be inclined to grant Rkhet the combo he's asking for (with spell aim) so I'm inclined to agree with Thanee in this case. But Rkhet's case is certainly defensible.
 

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