D&D 5E Phantasmal Force's non-saving throw--how would you handle?

[Zaruthustran]

Phantasmal Force is an oddball spell that does damage, but doesn't require an attack roll or allow a save. Instead:

The target can use its action to examine the phantasm with an Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC. If the check succeeds, the target realizes that the phantasm is an illusion, and the spell ends.

I'm curious how my fellow Dungeon Masters handle the above. For example, a PC casts Phantasmal Force as suggested by the spell: "a phantasm created to appear as fire, a pool of acid, or lava can burn the target."

Under what circumstances would a creature, apparently lit on fire, use its action to examine the fire, rather than use its action to drop & roll? Or otherwise attempt to extinguish the flame?

I was thinking maybe animals would be unaffected, since they have heightened senses and might realize something is not quite right. But the spell says "The phantasm includes sound, temperature, and other stimuli, also evident only to the creature." They'd smell their own burning flesh and hear their fat sizzle, in addition to feeling the searing flames.

Perhaps an intelligent creature who witnesses the spell as it's being cast could use an Arcana check to try to identify that the spell is Phantasmal Force and not something like Heat Metal. But again: that'd take an action in and of itself. And a rational person, on fire would probably give it the benefit of the doubt and jump in a lake.

That might be it: if the person takes steps to extinguish the flame, and those steps are ineffectual: the lake-jump doesn't stop the burning. But nope: "While a target is affected by the spell, the target treats the phantasm as if it were real. The target rationalizes any illogical outcomes from interacting with the phantasm." So the lake-jumper would assume and believe that the flames are magical, or greek fire, or rationalize some other explanation.

It's sort of a catch-22. The target might attempt the Intelligence (Investigation) check if it had reason to suspect the phantasm isn't real. But while affected, the target rationalizes reasons for the phantasm to be real. Even companions yelling "You're not on fire! It's not real! It's an illusion!" would be rationalized away as the flames being spirit flames, or otherwise imperceptible.

Clearly the Investigation check is supposed to come into play at some point, or it wouldn't be there (and the spell would be an "I win" button, if the caster had means of avoiding the target's attacks and maintaining Concentration). But, crucially, the spell does not simply have an automatic saving throw. That check is something that might happen--it's not something that always happens.

So: given the spell's effects, when would it come into play?

 

[Jaelommiss]

The effects of the spell only take effect after the target fails an intelligence saving throw (see lines 2-3 of the spell description). Other than that it is entirely a save or suck spell. I think that the ability to examine the illusion is more for phantasmal objects, such as the bridge used as an example in the description, than something directly damaging, such as fire or acid.

 

[aramis erak]

Phantasmal Force is an oddball spell that does damage, but doesn't require an attack roll or allow a save. Instead:



I'm curious how my fellow Dungeon Masters handle the above. For example, a PC casts Phantasmal Force as suggested by the spell: "a phantasm created to appear as fire, a pool of acid, or lava can burn the target."

Under what circumstances would a creature, apparently lit on fire, use its action to examine the fire, rather than use its action to drop & roll? Or otherwise attempt to extinguish the flame?

I was thinking maybe animals would be unaffected, since they have heightened senses and might realize something is not quite right. But the spell says "The phantasm includes sound, temperature, and other stimuli, also evident only to the creature." They'd smell their own burning flesh and hear their fat sizzle, in addition to feeling the searing flames.

Perhaps an intelligent creature could use an Arcana check to try to identify that the spell is Phantasmal Force and not something like Heat Metal. But again: that'd take an action in and of itself. And a rationale person, on fire would probably give it the benefit of the doubt and jump in a lake.

That might be it: if the person takes steps to extinguish the flame, and those steps are ineffectual: the lake-jump doesn't stop the burning. But nope: "While a target is affected by the spell, the target treats the phantasm as if it were real. The target rationalizes any illogical outcomes from interacting with the phantasm." So the lake-jumper would assume and believe that the flames are magical, or greek fire, or rationalize some other explanation.

It's sort of a catch-22. The target might attempt the Intelligence (Investigation) check if it had reason to suspect the phantasm isn't real. But while affected, the target rationalizes reasons for the phantasm to be real. Even companions yelling "You're not on fire! It's not real! It's an illusion!" would be rationalized away as the flames being spirit flames, or otherwise imperceptible.

Clearly the Investigation check is supposed to come into play at some point, or it wouldn't be there (and the spell would be an "I win" button, if the caster had means of avoiding the target's attacks and maintaining Concentration). But, crucially, the spell does not simply have an automatic saving throw. That check is something that might happen--it's not something that always happens.

So: given the spells effects, when would it come into play?

I treat the save versus it as killing the spell.

It's grounded in another game (The Fantasy Trip), where ending illusions is actually a universally inherent spell in intelligent species. If they make the save, they've essentially counterspelled it.

And it's not the only spell that is auto-damage...
Magic Missile is, too.

 

[PnPgamer]

Maybe some extreme conditions are things that allow the target to make its save. Like in the cases that you have lake jumper, or friends shouting that it is just an illusion.

 

[Scorpio616]

The effects of the spell only take effect after the target fails an intelligence saving throw (see lines 2-3 of the spell description).

Correct. First the targets gets a save to turn off the spell. Then at any time the target can spend an action to examine what's hurting him, to get a new Int save to end the effect. But most likely the target will just move away from the effect.

I think that the ability to examine the illusion is more for phantasmal objects, such as the bridge used as an example in the description, than something directly damaging, such as fire or acid.

It's for whatever form the illusion takes.

 

[77IM]

I'd say that if you spent your round interacting with the illusion (fighting a creature, dousing flames, whatever) that should count as "spending your action to examine the illusion."

I mean, how often does someone in combat blow a whole action just studying a for or hazard? Pretty rarely. But I think if you are interacting with something so intently that you are spending an action on it, you are probably probably paying pretty close attention to it.

In other words, in the sentence "The target can use its action to examine the phantasm with an Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC," maybe the "use its action" part is more relevant than the "examine" part. It's not like it says "The target can take the Search action..." or anything that specific.

 

[steeldragons]

In other words, in the sentence "The target can use its action to examine the phantasm..." maybe the "use its action" part is more relevant than the "examine" part. It's not like it says "The target can take the Search action..." or anything that specific.

uhhh...it does, in fact...rest of the sentence? "The target can use its action to examine the phantasm with an Intelligence [Investigation] check against your spell save DC."

Very next line. Very same sentence.

In reading comprehension you don't really get to pick/decide which words you think are "more relevant" within a single thought [the sentence].

EDIT for clarity: If you want to houserule that your PCs can use their action for a regular attack and that counts as enough interaction to equate with "examination" and, like, at the end of the round make an Int. check to see if they noticed anything amiss/recognize the illusion, that's all well and good. That's what you want at your table? I say go for it! But you have not a hair's width of leg to stand on following/in the text. /EDIT

 

[77IM]

(Please don't insult my reading comprehension. I'll assume you didn't mean to come across that way. Smileys do not make it better.)

I don't understand how the bold and italicized portion of that sentence negates my interpretation. The spell does not say you need to take the Search action or that the character needs to call for using Intelligence (Investigation) or that the victim needs to suspect the phantasm of being an illusion.

Example:

Player: I attack the summoned demon!
DM: Go ahead and make an Intelligence (Investigation) check.
Player: Wait, what? I said attack the demon, not examine him!
DM: Well yeah, but to do that you have to look at him, right? Pay attention to how he moves, predict his next strike, figure out how to get past his guard, that sort of thing? So that entitles you to make an Intelligence (Investigation) check to learn something interesting about this demon.
Other Player: psst...dude... This might have something to do with the Intelligence saving throw you failed when the demon was first summoned... Just sayin'...
Player: OK... [rolls] I got a 7.
DM: Great! Make your attacks. [DM pretends to care about the outcome of the attack rolls]

 

[KarinsDad]

I agree with 77IM. The character rolling on the ground trying to put out the flames is considered to be making an "Intelligence [Investigation] check against your spell save DC".

The PC is rolling on the ground, the mechanics of handling that is an Intelligence [Investigation] check against your spell save DC. PCs do not know anything about Intelligence [Investigation] checks. They just try to interact with the magic (i.e. attack the demon, put out the flames, walk across the bridge, etc.).

If the DM rules that the player must use an action to interact (e.g. in the walk across the bridge case) and the player does not want to use up an action for that, then the PC does not get the Intelligence [Investigation] check (and in the case of the bridge, falls through it). Effectively, the PC (or NPC) is not paying close attention to the illusion, rather he is taking superficial notice of it ("I don't care about the demon attacking me, I'm focusing on attacking the summoner").

 

[aramis erak]

Actually, KD, the PC rolling on the ground trying to put the illusory fire out is showing me that he's NOT got any doubt it's real fire. So, until he wakes up from the 0HP, he THINKS he is burning to death.