PHB 2 power creep

[robsenworldaccount]

Yes you can
I called WotC and specifically asked.

 

[keterys]

Interesting. PHB286:
'Clear Path: Forced movement can’t move a target into a space it couldn’t enter by walking. The target can’t be forced into an obstacle or made to squeeze into a space.'
would seem to clearly state otherwise, but I suppose as long as you guaranteed they had the movement to pop out the other side it might dubiously be allowable. Probably more fun that way, anyhow, so I'll start ruling differently on that.

I wish calling WotC were actually meaningful evidence

 

[beverson]

Interesting. PHB286:
'Clear Path: Forced movement can’t move a target into a space it couldn’t enter by walking. The target can’t be forced into an obstacle or made to squeeze into a space.'
would seem to clearly state otherwise, but I suppose as long as you guaranteed they had the movement to pop out the other side it might dubiously be allowable. Probably more fun that way, anyhow, so I'll start ruling differently on that.

I wish calling WotC were actually meaningful evidence

You can always move through a friendly square, that goes for pc's AND monsters...therefore the target CAN "enter by walking", and thus can be forced through. It just can't END there.

 

[keterys]

Yep - not sure where we started running that wrong, but never seen it done any other way at any other table (and, trust me, that's actually a lot of people). I'm actually happy to rule otherwise

 

[abyssaldeath]

(note: sinces its not "two attacks" you also only roll damage once. Its basically like an area attack that doesn't require enemies to be close to eachother, just within 10 of you)

Incorrect. You still need to roll damage twice.

RANGED ATTACK
Targeted: Ranged attacks target individuals.
A ranged attack against multiple enemies consists of
separate attacks, each with its own attack roll and
damage roll.

The Ranged attack doesn't need to say two attacks. It just needs to target more then one enemy.

 

[keterys]

That said, I imagine it would be convenient and fine for most groups to just roll damage once.

 

[Dreadite]

That said, I imagine it would be convenient and fine for most groups to just roll damage once.

They do just that in the Penny Arcade podcasts (it seems to save time and is quite convenient for the DM to track as well...)

 

[mach1.9pants]

(although there was some confusion until we realized the push was optional.)

Oh, thanks we haven't realised that yet. However only 2 sessions so far, never really come up. I guess, unless specifically stated, ALL forced move stuff is optional to the forcer!

EDIT: and we have been missing pushing through (as long as not ending) enemies squares, d'oh... learn some thing every day, sometimes twice

 

[Caliban]

I've definitely felt a power increase with PHB2. I wouldn't call it a creep, more of a headlong dash.

I used to enjoy running modules, now it just irritates me.

Between Martial Powers and PHB2, it seems every class now has one or more immediate interrupt/reaction powers that trigger on an attack, one or more ways to do forced movement, and higher attack bonuses (due to the Expertise feats), and are generally just better.

I can't plan anything when I'm DM'ing because the main bad guys are going to be moved, dazed, or knocked prone before their initiative comes up, and when I do try to attack or use a power, I have to check with the players to see if I'm "allowed" to do it without interference. Attacke the invoker? take damage and get pushed 3 square. Attack the sorcerer? Take damage. Attack the barbarian? get hit with an 3[w] immediate interrupt attack. Attack the wizard? Shield. and on and on.

It used to be just one or two classes. Now it seems like most of them can do it to one degree or another. Monsters that grab are useless - the bard can automatically get you out by either using a minor action to heal you and slide you, or use an encounter power to slide all allies and push enemies, and most PHB2 classes can achieve something similar.

It's supposed to be fun for the DM to run to. Now I just feel like I'm setting up a bag of hit points and XP for the players to annihilate in a round or two. I can't just make the monsters harder - I run LFR modules and everything is preset. I've seen encounters that were fun and challenging for a PHB1 group be steamrolled by groups using Martial Power and PHB2 classes powers and feats.

I'm just rapidly losing my enthusiasm for running the game, and I'm starting to lose it for playing the game as well.

Rant over.

 

[keterys]

I've definitely felt a power increase with PHB2. I wouldn't call it a creep, more of a headlong dash.

Interesting...

one or more ways to do forced movement

They... didn't seem uncommon before? From Positioning Strike, Thunderwave, Tide of Iron, etc?

I can't plan anything when I'm DM'ing because the main bad guys are going to be moved, dazed, or knocked prone before their initiative comes up, and when I do try to attack or use a power, I have to check with the players to see if I'm "allowed" to do it without interference.

Shield, Disruptive Strike... or really half a dozen ranger abilities Plus warlocks and rogues have lots of 'and I hit you back' type things.

Monsters that grab are useless - the bard can automatically get you out by either using a minor action to heal you and slide you, or use an encounter power to slide all allies and push enemies, and most PHB2 classes can achieve something similar.

Grab isn't intended to be a very strong power, and thunderwave and tide of iron accomplished similar things before... Song of Triumph is particularly movey, but I'm not seeing it as innately more powerful than, say, Divine Glow.

It's supposed to be fun for the DM to run to. Now I just feel like I'm setting up a bag of hit points and XP for the players to annihilate in a round or two.

Maybe you need a break? Seriously, when things start to get tougher it's easy to latch onto any excuse but a short vacation may do the deed. I understand objecting to things completely out of left field like, say, battleragers or nigh invulnerable shaman pets, but forced movement and immediates?

I can't just make the monsters harder - I run LFR modules and everything is preset.

Completely mistaken - at the beginning of every LFR mod is an entire section suggesting that you change the difficulty of the module to match your players (higher or lower). If they're steamrolling, increase away.