PHB only PCs?

[draquila]

Just a quick request for advice.

I've recently started as a new DM with a party of 5 virgin D&D players (all of us had 0 D&D experience to begin with).

We wanted to try the 4E starter kit adventure (I bemoaned its deficiencies on a separate thread already) but create our own characters. Due to our lack of rulebooks, we just used this online character builder (Sheepy's JavaScript D&D 4e Character Generator). We played through one session, and now all the players are on level 2 and need to level up.

I had a go at the WotC official demo character builder, and I realised there's actually a GAZILLION extra feats/powers/etc from other rulebooks/magazines. Now my question is, if I tell my players to stick to PHB only feats and powers for the sake of simplicity, would that gimp their characters? Is it true that some of the feats from the "expansions" are very good/necessary to fix some classes?

 

[TerraDave]

I limited to PHB(s) only for starting charecters, and have gradually allowed other options in. One issue for PHB I is all the errata. This is bad in that it can a hassle to track (though the builder largely addresses this), but its a good in the sense that is the most play-tested and corrected, and issues that some builds started with seem to have been fixed.

 

[Jack99]

The PHB classes are amongst the strongest in every role, and while some of the good options are in later books, the PHB classes (or rather, most of them) can definitely survive without. Paladin is probably the class that will miss out on most.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

If you want to play PHB only the weakest classes are Paladin and Warlock. The rest works fine PHB only.

 

[draquila]

Dang, of our five players, there is a warlock (star) and a paladin (cha-based). In what ways are they weak, and what's the simplest way to balance them? (ie. minimal purchase of rulebooks, etc).

 

[Black Knight Irios]

Dang, of our five players, there is a warlock (star) and a paladin (cha-based). In what ways are they weak, and what's the simplest way to balance them? (ie. minimal purchase of rulebooks, etc).

Paladin: Divine Power.
I assume he is CHA/WIS: His MBA sucks and he is not sticky, DC for marking alone is weak. No useful multi marking.

Warlock: I'm not sure, Arcane Power helps for sure but there are several good things that are in the dragon magazine.
If he is CON/CHA his AC and power riders suck if he is either CON/INT or CHA/INT half of the powers are useless if CHA/INT his pact at-will is useless, can be house ruled to be usable with CHA as well. And deals pretty low damage for a striker.

Maybe you should subscribe to DDI and get all books + dragons + etc.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Dang, of our five players, there is a warlock (star) and a paladin (cha-based). In what ways are they weak, and what's the simplest way to balance them? (ie. minimal purchase of rulebooks, etc).

The Chaladin isn't too bad. The Straladin was so constrained for options in PHB1 as to be close to unplayable (at 9th level there is literally NO STR based paladin power available at all!). Beyond that there is a bit of a dearth of key items for paladins, but its a perfectly playable build. I'd consider paladin the trickier of the two PHB1 defender options, but it should be fun.

Starlocks are definitely challenging, however we have one in our group that is mostly using PHB1 stuff. The main issues are a total dearth of vitally needed items in PHB1 and the need to build the character exactly right if its going to be effective. Its either GOT to be a half-elf if he's going to use both CON and CHA and just drop whatever his 3rd best score is in INT and never worry about it again, or just ignore one of CON/CHA entirely and stick with the power selection available to the other stat alone. In the second case CHA seemed to me to be the stronger choice, but it means one of your two at-wills is utterly useless. Going human in that case for the third at-will isn't a bad strategy. With a starlock its really best to map out where you're going with the character ahead of time at least into paragon since you have zero leeway to twig around with your stats later for feat prereqs and such.

I would seriously consider allowing AV1. Starlocks in particular are desperately in need of some good rods and they get crud in PHB1. They're also probably going to need some other stuff from AP and PHB2 at some point like DIS or something. At least its possible to get a pact blade and toss Weapon Focus onto your implement attacks right out of the PHB1 box, but its not really enough in the long run. Built well though the character should work fine for the first 3-4 levels.

You may want to download a demo copy of CB from the WotC site, it will work fine for levels 1-3. Its certainly going to work better than the javascript thing (which is cool and all, but honestly there is a ton of stuff it just doesn't cover). You can always sign up to DDI for a month at some point and get the whole CB for 9 bucks (and scarf up a copy of the whole collection of magazines too, its cheap money for what you get).

 

[draquila]

Wow, I haven't even considered the necessity of items for the PCs yet. I think we're still struggling to get a grasp of the feats/powers! Thanks for the advice though, DDI for a month sounds like a good idea.

We have a fighter as well, so I think the pally not being able to tank that effectively is not too bad. We don't have a leader, and the pally is speccing to max his heals. I might house rule and allow the pally to use Cha for his MBA (or let him take Melee Training feat) and let the starlock use Cha for dire radiance.

Regarding items, it is assumed to be the case that PCs have access to a shop that stocks all purchaseable items in-between adventures to buy what they can afford? (I'm still waiting for my DMG to arrive in the mail)

 

[Obryn]

Wow, I haven't even considered the necessity of items for the PCs yet. I think we're still struggling to get a grasp of the feats/powers! Thanks for the advice though, DDI for a month sounds like a good idea.

It's the best deal in gaming. I can't think of anything (legal) that comes even close.

Before you let it overwhelm you, there's a Campaign tab where you can (1) check or uncheck the sources you're allowing; and (2) save those settings for future use.

We have a fighter as well, so I think the pally not being able to tank that effectively is not too bad. We don't have a leader, and the pally is speccing to max his heals. I might house rule and allow the pally to use Cha for his MBA (or let him take Melee Training feat) and let the starlock use Cha for dire radiance.

Yeah, it's crazy how you ended up with two of the more challenging characters in the party. In fairness, both work kinda well at low levels.

The Paladin will be fine if he's allowed to switch around his At-Wills. There's a Strength or Charisma At-Will in Divine Power which can be used as a Melee Basic Attack.

Regarding items, it is assumed to be the case that PCs have access to a shop that stocks all purchaseable items in-between adventures to buy what they can afford? (I'm still waiting for my DMG to arrive in the mail)

That's completely your call. Within a few levels, they can learn the right rituals, anyway.

IME, magic item shops are fairly useless as long as you keep the party in mind when you're seeding magic items. Also, they're just so darn expensive, and it's tough to get enough cash together to get good ones.

-O

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, at 4th level someone that has Ritual Caster can get hold of Enchant Item and from there all you need to do is supply the party with gold, they can make whatever items they want. Normally you drop 4 items per level but you can always substitute money for items to whatever extent you want if the party can make their own. If you go strictly by the rules in the PHB there's a 10-40% "surcharge" on item cost when you buy anyhow, so enchanting them is always more economical.

If you do use AV1 be sure to pay attention to the errata. Its not hugely extensive but it does nerf some rather questionable items like bloodclaw weapons and such. Really it depends though, if your players aren't going to game the system then things work out fine.

I'd definitely consider picking up a PHB2 and some of the power books as you go along. DP and AP are particularly good ones to have. The other 3 power books have good stuff in them too but you certainly don't need anything beyond PHB1 to make a really solid ranger, rogue, or fighter. Warlords are pretty solid too. Clerics benefit from DP but they're in better shape overall than paladins and warlocks. PHB2 just has a lot of really fun classes that people may be interested in trying if they lose a character or something. Not really NEEDED but it also has some feats that people will like to have at some point.