PHB2: Melee Weapon Mastery - am I missing something?

[evilbob]

So you think this feat by itself makes fighters more powerful than wizards and clerics?

Well, since I never said that, I'll have to go with "no." Do you think your post kills babies? (A joke: also a non sequitur.)

A self-buffed Cleric can out-perform a Fighter at inflicting damage or tanking (absorbing damage and controlling the battlefield).

Actually, I believe this statement to be incorrect, based on my experience.

I'm currently running a game around 11th level with a fighter and a tricked-out super cleric using the persistant metamagic trick, and my experience in their damage output has been the following: if both the fighter and the cleric are given all the time they need to prepare for a situation, the cleric can occationally - at certain levels - do slightly more damage on average than the fighter. This is solely due to the cleric's ability to mimic high-level items with spells (such as divine power). However, this is not consistant at each level, and in the long run, the fighter will always do more damage. Why? One word: feats. The cleric uses almost all his feats to power his metamagic trick, and even if he didn't he still doesn't get enough feats to duplicate the fighter's feat progression. The fighter can simply raise his damage consistantly with feats, and the cleric - even super magicked-up - cannot keep up. Once they both start getting powerful items that are as good as the the buffs from the cleric's spells, it's really all over. And all of this is pre-supposing that the cleric has all the time he needs to prepare. In reality, this only happens at best around half the time. Granted, this percentage actually does go up the higher level the character are, but at that point the race is already lost. All those little +1 feats really do make a difference. (This just goes even further - at least in my opinion - to show why the MWM feat is broken as-written.)

Now don't get me wrong: I'm not saying the cleric isn't a great character, super powerful, useful in so many other ways, blah blah blah - I'm just saying that in the SOLE category of raw average damage, he is not as good as a fighter, and cannot hope to be over the long run. That's all.

What amuses me in general is the notion that there are all these straight class melee characters out there.

Actually, I've never played in a game without a straight-classed melee character. We have two in my game right now.

 

[KingCrab]

Ah, 4 levels of Fighter for the weapon specialization. That makes sense. Thank you.

 

[Nifft]

Actually, I believe this statement to be incorrect, based on my experience.

I'm currently running a game around 11th level with a fighter and a tricked-out super cleric using the persistant metamagic trick

Persistent Divine Metamagic is only worthwhile if you have access to extra Turn Undead attempts (via Nightsticks or something similarly cheesy). Otherwise, I much prefer Divine Metamagic + Quicken. It's the same basic effect, but much more flexible, less feat intensive (3 vs. 4), and the base metamagic feat Quicken is useful in its own right.

In the builds I've seen on the interweeb which rely on DMM Persistent, the character gets two of the requisite feats free (via the Planning and Undeath domains -- offered by the God of Lich Insurance, I guess).

(Have I mentioned that I hate Persistent Spell? Well, it's not my favorite feat.)

Now don't get me wrong: I'm not saying the cleric isn't a great character, super powerful, useful in so many other ways, blah blah blah - I'm just saying that in the SOLE category of raw average damage, he is not as good as a fighter, and cannot hope to be over the long run. That's all.

Do both characters have access to the Cleric's "all day" buffs, like greater magic weapon? Even if the Fighter has the feat advantage, look at the difference between a +1 Holy Flaming Shock Frost (+++) morningstar (which is acting like it's +5 thanks to gmw) vs. what a Fighter can afford. The smart melee Cleric takes Craft Magic Arms & Armor, and he makes his ideal weapon for half price, then enhances it with spells every day.

Anyway. I'm glad Fighters aren't a dead breed in your game. I'm playing a Cleric for the first time, and playing him as a party-buffer rather than a spotlight-stealer. I can see the power that would be available if I chose to (ab)use it purely for my own benefit.

Cheers, -- N

 

[evilbob]

I guess no one has even glanced at GMW because at level 11, it still only does +2. Getting an effective +1 to your attack and damage for a 4th level spell seems kinda pitiful at that stage of the game. Granted, by level 16 or so it'll be +4, which can be an effective +3 - certainly worth the spell, and it does last "all day" at that point, easily. But by level 16, owning a powerful weapon that can almost keep up with the spell isn't going to be difficult for the fighter (who's highest loot priority is his primary weapon) - once again tipping it back the other way. This spell might be most effective at level 12, and again at level 20 - but that's just sort of spotty. Good idea in general, though - I'll have to re-mention that spell to the cleric.

As for the crafting feat, a cleric is already so feat-starved it's hard to do it. (And the one in our game probably wouldn't take it, since the party wizard has become a crafter.)

 

[Quartz]

The point about GMW is that at very high levels, instead of having a +5 weapon with +5 worth of special features, you can have a +1 weapon with +9 worth of special features, then cast GMW to turn it into a +5 weapon with +9 of special featues or +14 total.

 

[Nifft]

The point about GMW is that at very high levels, instead of having a +5 weapon with +5 worth of special features, you can have a +1 weapon with +9 worth of special features, then cast GMW to turn it into a +5 weapon with +9 of special featues or +14 total.

Bingo. Even at 16th level it's worth making a +1 Holy Shock Flame Frost Speed
and getting +3 from the spell. At 20th level it's very worth it.

Sorry, suppose I should have spelled that out more.

Cheers, -- N

 

[The Blow Leprechaun]

Maybe, but I'm not sure I like the opportunity cost of requiring your cleric to cast it on you every day. I'd rather have the +5 weapon naturally, and they can use that spell slot to prepare an extra freedom of movement or restoration, or if they like to wade into combat themselves, Divine Power.

I'm all for buff spells, but I wouldn't like to play a character that needed a particular buff to be as effective, particularly a 4th level spell. You never know when you're going to get separated, or your cleric loses his divine favor. The only situation where I think I'd pursue those weapon builds + GMW was if I was the cleric enchanting my own weapon.

But hey, that's me, and I have a history of hating cleric party members.

 

[Darklone]

I'd prefer a +3 mithril weapon or some adamant thing for the hardness against sunder attempts by adamant weapons.

Needing GMW to have my toothstick turned into the sword "Unbreakable" is hardly reassuring to me.

 

[Nifft]

Maybe, but I'm not sure I like the opportunity cost of requiring your cleric to cast it on you every day.

Since this is a question of a Cleric out-damaging a Fighter, this tactic is only relevant if you are the Cleric.

The only situation where I think I'd pursue those weapon builds + GMW was if I was the cleric enchanting my own weapon.

That just makes you a selfish bastard. And thus an effective Cleric player.

Clerics are also in a position to make their desired weapons, thanks to Craft Magic Arms & Armor. Fighters... better hope for a MagiK-Mart.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Quartz]

Maybe, but I'm not sure I like the opportunity cost of requiring your cleric to cast it on you every day.

You don't have to: you have a Ring of Spell Storing or somesuch.