Quasqueton
First Post
I searched but didn’t find the RttToEE story hour. I found 3 other stories, though. Link please?
Quasqueton
-
The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Piratecat ruined my D&D game
- Thread starter Quasqueton
- Start date
Quasqueton
Skyscraper
Explorer
I find the PC death toll to be more important in 3.5 than in 1st Ed, or rather, less predictable. For me, this is a major issue that i'd like to address (i've started a couple of threads on other sites on that subject). Critical hits and the game mechanics allow for very important damage to be dealt out in certain situations, and that's to address only death from damage, which makes PC survivability much more difficult.
I the campaign i'm DMing right now, two deaths just occured, which brings the death count to three in a two-year period (started at level 3, now at level 7 - we play once or twice a month), but that's three out of four of the original PCs. It's a real bummer for the storyline from my perspective. It is undesirable both for the players and myself as a DM.
FYI, i don't fudge rolls, for important rolls i often throw the dice out in the open. I think it is important to maintain the suspense and high-level action to have the possibility of death be out there.
There have been several suggestions on how to increase player survivability. I haven't figured out what i'll be doing yet, but i'd be curious to hear suggestions!
Kid Charlemagne, would you be willing to provide a few more details on how this "roll the bones" mechanic works? (I understand that this is copyrighted material, no need to provide all the details).
Crothian, any more specific examples of plot hooks and storylines that you've used for brinigng PCs back from the dead without taking the party on an entire side quest?
Sky
I the campaign i'm DMing right now, two deaths just occured, which brings the death count to three in a two-year period (started at level 3, now at level 7 - we play once or twice a month), but that's three out of four of the original PCs. It's a real bummer for the storyline from my perspective. It is undesirable both for the players and myself as a DM.
FYI, i don't fudge rolls, for important rolls i often throw the dice out in the open. I think it is important to maintain the suspense and high-level action to have the possibility of death be out there.
There have been several suggestions on how to increase player survivability. I haven't figured out what i'll be doing yet, but i'd be curious to hear suggestions!
Kid Charlemagne, would you be willing to provide a few more details on how this "roll the bones" mechanic works? (I understand that this is copyrighted material, no need to provide all the details).
Crothian, any more specific examples of plot hooks and storylines that you've used for brinigng PCs back from the dead without taking the party on an entire side quest?
Sky
Piratecat said:
All of Piratecat's advice was excellent, but I think this, in particular, goes a long way to ensuring you can pull something together later on down the road. The more pieces (plot hooks) you have to play with, the more opportunity you have to look like a brilliant, scheming mastermind behind the curtain.
Mycanid
First Post
By the way PC - just wanted to thank you for running campaigns that could create this kind of reaction. I think this is wonderful - this is much more of what I feel the standard of a campaign should be, and I am glad there are folks out there still striving to uphold the standard (is it was rather eloquently expressed by Q's first post. 
So - thanks!
So - thanks!
Henry
Autoexreginated
Yeah, that Rat Bastard has destroyed my sense of fulfilment from my games, also. Darn it, players at my table! Where's the epic commitment? Where is the desire for metaplots? Where are the Clerics casting MIRACLE JUST TO GIVE THEIR GODS THE XP IN A HOLY STRUGGLE!?!?! I ask you!!!
Seriously, it was reading PCat's and other people's stories on ENWorld that did change my thinking and make me want to run more long-term games, and games with more depth and plot thread-capacity. They inspired me to run a high-level D&D game, the first I had ever run. In the old days, we'd play to somewhere between 6th and 9th level (more 6th than 9th), then the players and DM would get bored, another player would have an idea as DM, and we'd start fresh. We still had lots of fun, but I realized we were missing out on OTHER kinds of fun, when I started reading stuff like the story hours. We just went from there, and while I think I've reaffirmed my love of D&D below 10th level, we still had a blast juggling Epic powers that shake the world.
Darn it, players at my table! Where's the epic commitment? Where is the desire for metaplots? Where are the Clerics casting MIRACLE JUST TO GIVE THEIR GODS THE XP IN A HOLY STRUGGLE!?!?! I ask you!!!Seriously, it was reading PCat's and other people's stories on ENWorld that did change my thinking and make me want to run more long-term games, and games with more depth and plot thread-capacity. They inspired me to run a high-level D&D game, the first I had ever run. In the old days, we'd play to somewhere between 6th and 9th level (more 6th than 9th), then the players and DM would get bored, another player would have an idea as DM, and we'd start fresh. We still had lots of fun, but I realized we were missing out on OTHER kinds of fun, when I started reading stuff like the story hours. We just went from there, and while I think I've reaffirmed my love of D&D below 10th level, we still had a blast juggling Epic powers that shake the world.
Voadam
Legend
I modified some rules on death for my game.
Save or die turn into save or dying.
I use AU's con bonus for disabled.
I use a fort save for actual death, DC at points negative, saves start when hit -10.
Haven't had character deaths in the long running game I run now which started as a 3e game shortly after banewarrens came out. The characters are 16th level and we go a lot by e-mail with very infrequent face to face games.
Save or die turn into save or dying.
I use AU's con bonus for disabled.
I use a fort save for actual death, DC at points negative, saves start when hit -10.
Haven't had character deaths in the long running game I run now which started as a 3e game shortly after banewarrens came out. The characters are 16th level and we go a lot by e-mail with very infrequent face to face games.
thedungeondelver
Adventurer
Obviously, revenge is your only recourse. Kill piratecat.
Torx
First Post
This is a great thread, and something that will really speak to a lot of people.
I'm personally the same way, only my players and I like to have a campaign last for 1-3 years max, instead of 15+ years. But the same principles apply here.
Character death is something that most of my players don't really care for, it actually lessens the fun for them. However, they also like to be challenged and just barely skirt death whenever possible. It's a tough balance to maintain, and I've really only done it successfully once.
I found, for my group at least, that I've had to identify the players who were "willing" to have their characters die (usually in favor of their new-fangled concept character) and those that get so attached to their character that they would be devastated if they were to die. If I figure out who is who, then I know who I can cheat death with.
There have been plenty of threads on how to properly cheat death for your players' characters. I've found the best way is not to fudge rolls, but to come up with in game reasons that save the day when the players are overmatched or run across a string of bad luck. Also, instituting something as simple as action dice or luck feats will keep more characters alive than you would think.
And again, there are certain players who will thank you for this (if they ever find out, that is), and other players for whom it would cheat them of the thrill of adventure. My job is to figure out who is who. With this method, I've been able to keep the same charaters more or less together throughout an entire 1-20 level campaign, and the players have loved it.
I'm personally the same way, only my players and I like to have a campaign last for 1-3 years max, instead of 15+ years. But the same principles apply here.
Character death is something that most of my players don't really care for, it actually lessens the fun for them. However, they also like to be challenged and just barely skirt death whenever possible. It's a tough balance to maintain, and I've really only done it successfully once.
I found, for my group at least, that I've had to identify the players who were "willing" to have their characters die (usually in favor of their new-fangled concept character) and those that get so attached to their character that they would be devastated if they were to die. If I figure out who is who, then I know who I can cheat death with.
There have been plenty of threads on how to properly cheat death for your players' characters. I've found the best way is not to fudge rolls, but to come up with in game reasons that save the day when the players are overmatched or run across a string of bad luck. Also, instituting something as simple as action dice or luck feats will keep more characters alive than you would think.
And again, there are certain players who will thank you for this (if they ever find out, that is), and other players for whom it would cheat them of the thrill of adventure. My job is to figure out who is who. With this method, I've been able to keep the same charaters more or less together throughout an entire 1-20 level campaign, and the players have loved it.
shilsen
Adventurer
I want a lot of the things you want, Quasqueton, and so far I think I'm doing a decent job achieving them in my Eberron campaign (see sig).
One of the simplest ways to that end for me was to take death effectively out of the equation. IMC, PCs get to use action pts (originally) or swashbuckling cards (currently) to survive killing blows/effects by being dropped to -9 hp (and stable) instead. I let the dice fall where they may and I run brutal encounters, and without this rule, we'd have had 25 PC fatalities in 50 sessions. Raising people from the dead is really not an option in this campaign, so all of those deaths would have been permanent, and I'm quite sure I'd have lost all interest in the game by now (as, very likely, would my players).
What I make sure to do is have a very large number of repercussions for defeat. PCs may be captured, may lose valuable/important equipment and possessions, may fail to stop enemies from some goal, may allow enemies to stop them from achieving something important, may lose NPC allies who don't have this kind of immunity to death, etc. And, of course, there's the whole issue of PC (and player) ego, which makes defeat a very unpopular eventuality, death or no death.
Along with these, I do all of the things PC mentioned above, other than being prepared to kill PCs off. So I get to have party/PC consistency, develop long-term and complicated plots, watch the PCs and the game world around them grow together, and let the dice fall where they may.
It's not for everyody, but I definitely found my personal perfect combo, and I really don't think I'll ever DM any other way.
One of the simplest ways to that end for me was to take death effectively out of the equation. IMC, PCs get to use action pts (originally) or swashbuckling cards (currently) to survive killing blows/effects by being dropped to -9 hp (and stable) instead. I let the dice fall where they may and I run brutal encounters, and without this rule, we'd have had 25 PC fatalities in 50 sessions. Raising people from the dead is really not an option in this campaign, so all of those deaths would have been permanent, and I'm quite sure I'd have lost all interest in the game by now (as, very likely, would my players).
What I make sure to do is have a very large number of repercussions for defeat. PCs may be captured, may lose valuable/important equipment and possessions, may fail to stop enemies from some goal, may allow enemies to stop them from achieving something important, may lose NPC allies who don't have this kind of immunity to death, etc. And, of course, there's the whole issue of PC (and player) ego, which makes defeat a very unpopular eventuality, death or no death.
Along with these, I do all of the things PC mentioned above, other than being prepared to kill PCs off. So I get to have party/PC consistency, develop long-term and complicated plots, watch the PCs and the game world around them grow together, and let the dice fall where they may.
It's not for everyody, but I definitely found my personal perfect combo, and I really don't think I'll ever DM any other way.
