Pitiful Monk, your speed impresses me not.

[Orco42]

but back to the hijack: to me it seems obvious that "flavour text" is what is causing the confusion.

I agree.

The MM says you can run when flying and the a character' speed doubles with ER.

It is only the flavor text in the PHB that is a problem. Even in the PHB the spell says "Your speed and max jump dist. doubles".

It seems as if the speed works on all movement rates.

 

[Uller]

I can't believe this is even being debated...

 

[IceBear]

Sorry Karinsdad, after agreeing with you on the last thread, I have to disagree here (at least with reference to the SRD; at work without my PHB).

Expeditious Retreat doubles speed and jumping distance. It doesn't state what forms of speed, so I would allow it to apply to flying.

Also, someone can take the "run" action while flying to move 4X their base speed, as long as it is in a straight line.

IceBear

 

[SpikeyFreak]

But you cats are forgetting something.

A flying creature can use the run action as long as the fly in a straight line.

--Annoyed Spikey

 

[Orco42]

But you cats are forgetting something.

A flying creature can use the run action as long as the fly in a straight line.

--Annoyed Spikey

I don't think we are forgetting that. It was posted earlier. And the poster didn't say the character was changing directions.

Of course he would every now and then to account for a hill or something.

 

[KarinsDad]

Another think people are forgetting is that the MM states that creatures can use the "run action".

Not runnning.

The "run action" is the ability to increase your speed by x4 in order to move quicker. It is an explicit reference to the rules of increased movement rates in the PHB.

When on foot, this is called "running".

When flying, this might be called "jetting" or "soaring" or some such.


So, what happens when you apply this to the Fly spell?

According to the double speed of any type position, the Fly spell would be doubled with the ER spell.

But, what does the Fly spell have to do with being quick of foot? Nothing.

I understand that a single sentence within the description of the ER spell states that it doubles your speed. And, if that were the only sentence in the description of the spell in the PHB, I would agree with people.

But, taking the entire description of Expeditious Retreat states differently. Some people call it flavor text. I call it part of the description of the spell and how the spell works. I do not drop sentences out of spell descriptions, just because they do not fit my conception of how the spell should work. YMMV.

 

[IceBear]

I understand, but in the SRD, they simply state it doubles your speed and jumping distance. I know the SRD spell descriptions aren't gospel (yet), but if they felt those "fluff" text lines were important I think they would have included them.

Also, in one of the Power Plays in Dragon Magazine, I think (think!!!) they had some example of using ER while swimming.

IceBear

 

[jontherev]

Here's a thought...

In all the accessories and various books out there, is there a spell similar to ER that acts for flying or swimming or any other type of movement? If not, I would be inclined to believe ER was meant to double ANY movement. Regardless, for around 22k, you can have some winged boots of striding and spider-climbing and double most normal modes of movement. Unless KD is your GM, that is. So, is there another spell to double other movement, or all the Kuo-Toa wizards out of luck if they want to double their swimming movement? Argh! Just spell research I guess. Call it Expeditious Running, Ex. Swimming, etc. Or, and this is just crazy(!), but how about we have just one spell that doubles all movement? Is there a balance problem here? Not imo.

 

[Rogue]

School is in Session

KD

...The "run action" is the ability to increase your speed by x4 in order to move quicker. It is an explicit reference to the rules of increased movement rates in the PHB...When on foot, this is called "running".

When flying, this might be called "jetting" or "soaring" or some such...

Okay, give you a point there, at least yer starting to relent this stubborness. It has already been posted that you can fly, and run!, at the same time. And that's if you pay attention to the annoying fluff text, which you seem to be quite attached to for some reason... they call it fluff for a reason, ya know. Nice and pretty, yet not needed in the slightest.

KD

So, what happens when you apply this to the Fly spell? According to the double speed of any type position, the Fly spell would be doubled with the ER spell.

But, what does the Fly spell have to do with being quick of foot? Nothing.

So, what happens when you apply the spell with Stone Skin and Improved Invisiblity? According to the rules for the former of the two spells, it would basically make one immune to pyhsical attacks for quite some time.

But, what does the Stone Skin spell have to do with how you are in invisible? Nothing. You're trying to prove the point that these two spells (Fly and ER) will prove an ungainly balance for movement ratings other than speed? If that's the case, then take at look at my example one more time. Those two spells make anyone just about immune to physical damage as long as they don't get dispelled, but that's the same for nearly all spells. And it's just one combo spell that works wonders for PC's. KD, I am not trying to tell you how to play the game. I am trying to show you the rules, and how they stand. If you wish to run a game where ER has no effect on anything besides the lower limbs, then more power to ya. Just back off the preaching and let others have fun.

 

[Uller]

Another think people are forgetting is that the MM states that creatures can use the "run action".

Not runnning.


The "run action" is the ability to increase your speed by x4 in order to move quicker. It is an explicit reference to the rules of increased movement rates in the PHB.

So when a flying character's player says "I run" and tries to move his fig 4x his movement in a straight line, you as the DM make him land on the ground and move using his feet and say "You didn't say you use the 'run action' you said 'run' so you are no longer flying"?

Seriously...In 3e D&D there are many terms that are defined game mechanics. Running and Speed are two of them. From a rule POV, Run = move at 3x or 4x your speed, draw AoOs and lose your dex bonus to AC. Speed = the distance you can move and still attack, cast a spell or other simple things.

"Fleet of foot" as far as I know is not a game term. It is flavor. The PHB lists gods and domains...you don't consider those to be "core rules" do you? If I don't allow dwarves to be clerics of Moradin, am I using house rules, I your opinion?

When on foot, this is called "running".

When flying, this might be called "jetting" or "soaring" or some such.

Really? What page of what book is the definition of "jetting"?

So, what happens when you apply this to the Fly spell?

According to the double speed of any type position, the Fly spell would be doubled with the ER spell.

I don't see a problem with that. In fact, that seems to be a pretty useful spell combination. Throw in Haste and now you can really get around.

But, what does the Fly spell have to do with being quick of foot? Nothing.

Maybe when you are using the fly spell, you move like Santa's reindeer(they are usually portrayed as "flying" by moving their feet in must animations and illustrations).

I understand that a single sentence within the description of the ER spell states that it doubles your speed. And, if that were the only sentence in the description of the spell in the PHB, I would agree with people.


But, taking the entire description of Expeditious Retreat states differently. Some people call it flavor text. I call it part of the description of the spell and how the spell works. I do not drop sentences out of spell descriptions, just because they do not fit my conception of how the spell should work. YMMV.

Anyway...leaving that sentence in does not preclude the spell from effecting other modes of movement. It merely describes the spells most common usage: moving on the ground.

For me, the biggest question is how do you multiply the Speed. Do you apply the multiplier rules? In otherwords, do you simple double speed and use that as the base(so when you run, it is (2xspeed) x4. Or do you apply the largest and add 1 for each doubling...so running movement rate = speed x (4 + 1) = speed x5.

Perhaps this second option would make it more pallitable to KD...