Planar Binding, Celestials, and good casters

[Merlion]

This has bugged me since 3rd edition came out.
If your a good aligned sorcerer or wizard and wish to use the Planar Binding spells to call Celestials and the like, do you ever need the protective circle? It seems like you could just use the spell to get them their and then make some sort of deal...do this for me and I'll owe you a favor etc etc.
The spell descpretion seems to assume your going to be binding demons and whatnot...but with good creatures and good casters it seems it'd be easier.
Of course, the details would vary from campaign to campaign but this situation isnt even touched on in the spell descpretion.

 

[AuraSeer]

IMC, Celestials are not like the wussy self-help angels from "Highway to Heaven" or "Touched by an Angel." They're like the angels from the Old Testament, with the righteous fury and the smiting of evil and the fire and brimstone and all that bad-ass stuff. Even good clerics step carefully around them.

I guess you could call them without a magic circle, but you'd have to be awfully sure of your own importance. If the Celestial has better things to do, it will likely leave without listening to your request. And if it's annoyed at the inconvenience, it might slap you with a quest before it goes.

(Other campaigns may work differently, of course.)

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I agree with the original poster. Even if Celestials are more like biblical angels(check the descriptions of the New Testament angels--there's not much difference between them and the OT ones) than raphaelite fat babies or anorexic girls with wings, it doesn't seem right for good casters to bind them in a summoning circle, etc. That seems appropriate for wizards who are extorting a favor (as per the classical demon summoning story) rather than wizards who wish to deal with the celestials in good faith. I would imagine that such a wizard would probably contact the celestials and negotiate an arrangement before casting the planar binding spell (unfortunately, it's not exactly clear how this would work with the D&D rules).

Sepuchrave's story hour has some good ideas for how this might work (compacting, etc) but unfortunately actually doesn't describe the use of any spells other than Gate to summon celestials.

 

[DanMcS]

Actually, at one point Mostin used a planar binding of some variety to bring in a planetar for Eadric. Eadric waited for it to materialize, scratched out the circle, and it bowed and asked him for instruction. I just finished reading the collected tale, I don't really have the whole thing memorized

 

[gfunk]

Well since people are plugging Story Hours, here is a shameless plug for mine .

BTW, I agree with AuraSeer. IMC, powerful celestials do not appreciate being summoned any more than powerful demons or devils. On the other hand though, if you are of like alignment they would probably let you off with a warning.

Situation #1 -- LG Cleric uses Greater Planar Ally to call a Solar

Everyone stood warily around Joachim as he completed the words to the incantation. The Inquisitor had demanded that Justice Hythal clear the entire temple. He had never before requested so much from Tyr and he wanted no interference.

As the spell was completed, the entire room was suffused with a radiant golden glow and seemingly out of nowhere appeared a being that was law and justice personified.

With gleaming white wings, eyes that that were like pools of molten gold, the nine-foot tall creature addressed the Inquisitor, "Joachim Dethick, High Inquisitor of Tyr! The lord of justice bade me to parlay with you. What is it you require?"

As quickly as he could, Joachim explained the situation with Irae T'ssaren, trying to describe the Great Revenance and the threat to the Dales.

The mighty Solar's expression did not change when Joachim finished. "Inquisitor, I am the mightiest servant of Lord Tyr. I am tasked with the enforcement of justice throughout the planes. Yet, you have the gall to ask me to act as your shield man in a regional conflict?"

"I am sorry if I offended you sir. However, the threat is not merely a regional one. If T'ssaren's plan is successful then the entire world of Toril may well feel the result. And this drow is indeed a powerful enemy, worthy of your attention. Some suggest that she is the a Chosen of Kiaransalee."

The Solar listened carefully, but was not convinced, "Tyr has gifted you with mighty powers. On this material plane, you are among his most respected and influential clerics. I am certain that destroying this drow with your current companions will not be an insurmountable task."

Seeing that he could not press further, Joachim nodded, "I understand sir. I am very sorry for wasting your time. Farewell."

"Yet, I am not without concern for your plight Inquisitor. Though I do not deem it necessary to intervene directly in your affairs, I will grant you a boon."

Joachim thought for a moment, "Sir, our previous incursion into T'ssaren's stronghold have most assuredly put the place on high alert. It would be very difficult for us to defeat all her undead minions again. By the time we reached the drow herself, we would be ripe for killing. I humbly request that you provide us with transport into the heart of her stronghold."

"I will agree to such terms. However, I also require something in return," the golden eyes slowly looked over the other party members as if penetratrating their very souls. The celestial finally stopped when he reached Noir, "Inquisitor, I see that the holy champion in your group has a sword of great evil. It was forged in the Lower Planes and constructed to bring about chaos and strife. It is not appropriate for individuals such as yourselves to be using it. Give it to me and I will dispose of it properly."

Noir was taken aback for a moment. With the vorpal greatsword, she was better able to serve the cause of law and good by destroying many evil opponents. However, her foremost concern was the restoration of her homeland so she reluctantly handed the weapon to the Solar.

Situation #2 -- NE Sorcerer uses Gate to call a Solar

The Solar stared at Entropy with a gaze of pure hatred, “You will pay for summoning me mortal! Even the greatest of Heaven’s champions may not call on me when they are in peril. Yet you have the gall to compel me to fight your battles? Your arrogance will not go unpunished!!”

“Wish her back.”

“What!?”

“You heard me Solar, wish the Cathezar back!”

Seeing that he would have to back up his words with actions later, the Solar complied. Attuning himself to the Weave, he tried to grasp the form of the Cathezar and wrench her back to his location. Though the Solar’s spell was mighty, the demon’s resistance to magic was mightier still and nothing happened.

“It cannot be done.”

“Unfortunate. Then your service to me is concluded.”

The celestial’s eyes narrowed, his visage becoming one of pure anger. The sight would send most mortals running for their lives. “Remember my words sorcerer. You will pay.”

 

[Tzarevitch]

IMC, Celestials are not like the wussy self-help angels from "Highway to Heaven" or "Touched by an Angel." They're like the angels from the Old Testament, with the righteous fury and the smiting of evil and the fire and brimstone and all that bad-ass stuff. Even good clerics step carefully around them.

I guess you could call them without a magic circle, but you'd have to be awfully sure of your own importance. If the Celestial has better things to do, it will likely leave without listening to your request. And if it's annoyed at the inconvenience, it might slap you with a quest before it goes.

(Other campaigns may work differently, of course.)

Also, remember that the spell does not politely ask the celestial to come. Nor does it grab a celestial that is presumed friendly to your cause. It yanks the specified being out of whatever it was doing and dumps it in front of the caster. I would think that good or no the celestial would be MAD unless there is a very good reason. If the summoner is is of similar ethos and alignment and has a good reason, likely the celestial won't do anything rash or violent . . . the first time.

Think of it this way: You are a great and powerful planetar, captain of the armies of good and light. You are leading your forces in the final battle against the forces of evil. You have just breached the castle of ultimate evil with your army of light at your back. You lock your eyes on the general of ultimate evil. You raise your sword in challenge and he responds in kind. The two of you lunge at each other, weapons bared, ready to decide once and for all whether good or evil shall prevail. Then suddenly you are surrounded by a flash of light and you feel a sickening wrench, and the next thing you hear is a human voice saying, "I am sorry to call you this way, but I have a problem . . . " You'd be steamed, to put it mildly.

The thing that DMs and players forget is that the celestials are captains of good and servants of the gods themselves. The have tasks to carry out and they don't sit in the cosmic waiting room just waiting to be summoned. If you summon one, there is a very good chance that you have just yanked an important minion of some god out of the task it was performing at the moment.

Tzarevitch

 

[Merlion]

Well again that all depends on how the DM decides to handle it. Its only a planetar being pulled out of a massive life and death war if the DM says so.
I dont ever see a celestial getting violent with a good caster under any circumstances(accept maybe good caster gets forced by evil person to summon a celestial). I mean their good...they are the paragons of good there not going to attack someone for inconviencing them. And obviously only a moron is going to summon a trumpet archon to do the laundry or something. Your going to have a good reason of one kind or another.
Now of course this is all going to vary from cosmology to cosmology but a world were summoning a celestial is just about as dangerous for a good caster as summoning a demon which seems to be nearly what you guys are talking about....well those are some pretty different celestials than I'm used to...
In the little campaign I am running there are no standard DnD "gods"...theres a Creator and Powers who personify abstracts...Justice Light etc..the good ones serves the Creator and the evil ones serve its adversary. Celestials serve the Creator and some times the good Powers to a lesser extent...and helping all good things be they mortal or otherwise is one of the main reasons for their existence...so if a good wizard summons one they are certainly not going to blast him on the spot and if they were engaged in something crucial most liely they would go back and send one of their less busy brethern to help out.

 

[Tzarevitch]

I tend to run celestials Planescape-style in that they spend their time serving their deity's interests and the interests of the forces of good and light. I also tend to role-play them biblical-style in that they are not neceassarily nice people. While they won't kill a good caster for summoning them out of whatever they were doing for a good reason, that doesn't mean the celestial will be pleased to serve. Also Planar Binding is not a pleasant way to be called. Fundamentally you trying to get someone's help by catching him in a magical trap that teleports him to you. That is not likely to earn you the celestial's friendship off the back.

I view celestials as reacting better to a priest calling them via Planar Ally (so long as it wasn't called for something trivial) because it calls an ally of the priest's deity that is presumabley willing to help (hence the term "ally").

Tzarevitch

 

[KingCroMag]

Quote
The thing that DMs and players forget is that the celestials are captains of good and servants of the gods themselves. The have tasks to carry out and they don't sit in the cosmic waiting room just waiting to be summoned. If you summon one, there is a very good chance that you have just yanked an important minion of some god out of the task it was performing at the moment.
End Quote

With this logic wouldn't it be better to summon a fiend and disrupt the plans of evil gods and demons? If so shouldn't the ethical descriptor of the spells be changed so that when you summon a celestial it is an evil spell due to the disrution it causes?
-KCM

 

[Merlion]

QUOTE]Also Planar Binding is not a pleasant way to be called. Fundamentally you trying to get someone's help by catching him in a magical trap that teleports him to you. That is not likely to earn you the celestial's friendship off the back. [/QUOTE]


Well see this is exactly my question. the spell doesnt create the trap...you can cast it without that. So I dont see why a good caster calling a celestial would need to do the trap for that purpose

I view celestials as reacting better to a priest calling them via Planar Ally (so long as it wasn't called for something trivial) because it calls an ally of the priest's deity that is presumabley willing to help (hence the term "ally").

If its a wizard or sorcerer who follows the same deity or even is the same alignment, whats the difference?