Player 1 'grabs and pulls' player 2, then claims it's 'Forced movement, no AtOp'

[Ninja-to]

So in our game tonight a player was stuck in a crack in the floor. He asks a fellow PC to pull him out. Next to him was a nasty Mummy. Because the other player pulled him, he claimed there should be no Attack of Opportunity because the other player 'forced' him to move. There was no power involved, it was just a grab and a yank.

I ruled there's no way that counts as forced movement, as it didn't come from a power or an effect as stated in the forced movement rules in the PHB. He wholeheartedly disagreed. A lot. I mean, a lot.

Any thoughts? If he's right, that means anyone can effectively 'pull' any other player two squares at any time it's convenient without provoking AtOps.

A
B
C

Player 'B' can grab and 'pull' player 'A' to square 'C' (two squares) and nobody can get atops on 'A'. After I pointed this out to him, he said that was exactly right.

Keep in mind, this is not a power. This is grabbing the guy by the collar or arm and just pulling. He said 'Nobody would ever do that though, because it would take a standard action.'

Thoughts?

 

[Zaphling]

I also just experienced this last session, which was yesterday. Our warlock was immobilised beside a brute so he can't fire his ranged spells safely. The warden just used his standard action to bull rush the warlock away from the brute. I just accepted it and had no Opportunity attacks triggered. because it was forced movement IMO.

 

[Kzach]

As per the Compendium:

MOVE A GRABBED TARGET: STANDARD ACTION

Strength Attack: Make a Strength attack vs. Fortitude. Do not add any weapon modifiers.
Hit: Move up to half your speed and pull the grabbed target with you.

Opportunity Attacks: If you pull the target, you and the target do not provoke opportunity attacks from each other, and the target doesn’t provoke opportunity attacks from adjacent enemies. However, if you leave a square adjacent to an enemy, that enemy can make an opportunity attack against you.

Seems pretty clear cut to me that the person being pulled doesn't provoke OA's but that the person doing the pulling does.

 

[Rune]

I disagree with the OP on two counts. First, it is a power, in the same way that a basic attack or bull rush is a power.

As per the rules compendium, after a creature is grabbed (which is also a power), the grabbing creature can, with a standard action, make a strength check vs. the target's Fortitude (and can automatically succeed against a helpless ally) to move up to half its speed and pull the target with it. The rules compendium then specifically says that the grabbing creature's movement does not provoke opportunity attacks from the grabbed creature, but does from other creatures.

It does not say, specifically that the grabbed creature does not provoke opportunity attacks, but does say that it is pulled, which is, of course, forced movement.

...And, you know what? For a standard action, that is entirely reasonable!

Edit--And, oh yeah...Grabbing (with the grab action) and then moving someone who is thus grabbed requires two standard actions!

Edit--Ninja'd by Kzach!

 

[DracoSuave]

The fact that it is or is not a power is entirely irrelevant anyways.

Was it a pull? Yes. Being pulled does not provoke Opportunity Attacks.

 

[Uller]

It is a standard action to grab. It is a standard action to move the grabbed target. The grabbed target does not provoke AoO but the character doing the movement does. So...if I understand the scenario correctly:

Character A is adjacent with the Mummy
Character B is not.

On B's turn, he "grabs" A. A is now immobilized.
The Mummy and A both get their turns.
B now must make str check opposed by A's Fort. On success, B move up to half its speed and pull A with it.

It takes two turns and B can't do anything else. I don't have a problem with that.

 

[Ninja-to]

I can understand a power doing this, but I disagree that this kind of 'pull' is the same as a 'Pull' (not the capital). If this is true then players and creatures can 'pull' each other all over the battlefield anytime they don't want their allies to take opportunity attacks.

Also, this is *not* 'forced movement' if the friendly player is allowing it to happen, is it?

I don't believe this is what was intended by the 'forced movement' rules. Just as movement rules are different for allies and enemies (eg you can move through allied squares, not enemies) I disagree that a regular yank on a collar grants all the benefits of forced movement.

 

[Ninja-to]

It is a standard action to grab. It is a standard action to move the grabbed target. The grabbed target does not provoke AoO but the character doing the movement does. So...if I understand the scenario correctly:

Character A is adjacent with the Mummy
Character B is not.

On B's turn, he "grabs" A. A is now immobilized.
The Mummy and A both get their turns.
B now must make str check opposed by A's Fort. On success, B move up to half its speed and pull A with it.

It takes two turns and B can't do anything else. I don't have a problem with that.

Actually, A was immobilized already by being stuck in sand. A mummy was standing next to him.

Character B pulled him away form the Mummy. Claiming it was 'forced' movement (which it wasn't, he allowed it to happen and it wasn't a power or effect as it says in the PHB) then player A claimed there was no AtOp.

And I still disagree that this pulling is a power.

 

[S'mon]

Your player is definitely right, and you are wrong.

BTW I'd say pushing or pulling an ally out of the path of an oncoming monster, boulder, train etc was an entirely legitimate tactic. Remember the person doing the pushing or pulling still provokes OAs.

 

[DracoSuave]

Actually, A was immobilized already by being stuck in sand. A mummy was standing next to him.

Irrelevant

Character B pulled him away form the Mummy.

Relevant

Claiming it was 'forced' movement

Correct

(which it wasn't, he allowed it to happen

Irrelevant

and it wasn't a power

Correct

or effect as it says in the PHB)

Incorrect

then player A claimed there was no AtOp.

Correct

And I still disagree that this pulling is a power.

Irrelevant.


It does not matter if it was a power. It was an effect, (if it weren't, nothing would happen) but even that's not relevant.

Was it a pull? If Yes, it is forced movement, and no OA. If No, OA. Pulls are by definition forced movement. Whether forced movement is beneficial to the target or not is irrelevant to this.

That's the only question that needs to be addressed, everytihng else has absolutely nothing to do with the question of OAs resulting from movement.

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Really tho, the fault is yours for not delineating what sort of movement it was. If it was a normal move, you should have said it would be. If it was a shift, then there's no OA. And if it's a push, pull, or slide, it's 'forced movement' regardless of how voluntary it is, as the ally doesn't get to decide where he goes.

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At the end tho, ask yourself if the guy used a standard action to do this. Chances are he did, and a standard action or two, accompanied by some die rolls, is a fair way to move someone out of a hazard and avoid trouble. The enemy is still getting the advantage in terms of attacking.