Player Dilemma

[Funeris]

Claim him a murderer and bring him to justice. Suggest to the DM that his alignment should now be evil after his actions, and detect him as such, then kill him and sell his stuff to donate to a goblin orphanage.

Listen to the post-master. He knows his stuff.

~Fune

 

[DevlinStormweaver]

surely as a Paladin I can't just call some-one a murderer. Yes i am not happy he attacked children but i don't think calling him out for a fight would be a good act. The problem needs to be sorted out through diplomacy. Killing his character in combat i can't justify that to myself. It would be like taking the easy way out.

 

[haakon1]

all goblins who pass my way would end up dead on the floor and my axe stained in their gore... As far as i am concerned the goblin children are the spawn of evil. Regardless of moral dilemma my dwarf acted and with speed and agility and "" NO REMORSE"" snapped their necks like twindling.

. . . and if the paladin wishes to test my mettle on the matter we would likely engage in mortal combat . . .

Simply put evil is as evil does... you want to claim me murderer then feel free... But understand this my dwarf is who i rp as and i have no plans of changing his current feeling towards goblins or anyother of the goblinoid races...[/QUOTE]

You're right that evil is as evil does. And you can play your character as you choose. Just be aware, you're character is not good ... which maybe was never your intent.

 

[Funeris]

You're not just calling him a murderer...he is one. He admits it freely. He kills because he is a racist. No other reason. Although, he does claim he did it because there was no one else to take care of them....

R i g h t . . . .

Ok, mister macho dwarf. Flip sides as you see fit to rationalize your "justice".

Here's a hypothetical situation for everyone. Let's say I grew up in the ghetto...filled with gangbangers. I spent everyday of my young life dodging bullets from one race or another. Later on in life, I walk down a street. I come upon a child of the race of gangbangers that had assualted me in my youth. I shoot this unarmed kid point-blank in this chest. Am I a murderer?

Hells Yes. On top of that I'd be a racist as well. I become easily fed up with these types of individuals in the really real world. They rationalize their prejudices away behind walls of excuses.

Now as an aside, kudos to the dwarf player. He's role-playing a racist very well...and that's oh so hard to do. (And his impotence toward slaughtering the evil children just proved it moreso)

He's still wrong.

The DM has already expressed that evil can be converted within her world. Conversion was an applicable route. That is what should have been done.

As a paladin you are an arbiter of justice. This dwarf needs to be brought to justice.

Call him out. If he doesn't go quietly, well he earned your righteous wrath. Paladins have backbones....use yours.

Of course then, what do I really know? I play in a world where there are Good priests of evil deities and every goblin/orc/troll (not to mention demon/devil/'loth) can be converted from paths of evil. Just as angels can fall from the heavens. If you were a paladin in my game world...and chose not to bring the dwarf to justice...then your paladin abilities would disappear.

Paladinhood is a lonely and difficult road.

~Funeris, the paladin.

 

[haakon1]

Else every evil villain who has caused untold suffering to the masses (virgin sacrifice, baby eating, voting green...) and is about to get their comeuppance from a group of shiny do-good heroes would be able to immediately change their alignment, swear off evil and be untouchable - and then you have characters who have to discuss whether killing this newly minted goodie-two-shoes is an evil act or good.

Justice doesn't care whether you've repented. I'm reminded of the case of Carla Fay Tucker in the mid-1990s. She killed two people with a pickaxe for drug money (and because she had a +1 against them?) in the 1980s or something in Texas.

On death row, she became a born again Christian and pleaded with George W. Bush for clemency, essentially because she was no longer evil. Bush refused to reduce the sentence, and she was the first woman executed in Texas in a century. The law was certainly with him, regardless of other considerations -- a repentant murderer is still a murderer, and religion has nothing to do with it.

The other thing is, using the Catholic theology I grew up with, IMC you can't just SAY you're no longer going to kill puppies. You have to mean it, truly repent, truly understand and accept that you'll go to heck for what you've done, and truly not want to do it again. That's not a bar a super villain can met expediently when the paladins come for him. And if he is sincere, the LAWFUL part comes into play, in bringing justice regardless of Dr. Evil's personal situation -- Dr. Evil may "find Pelor" in his last seconds and be saved to go to Heaven, but the paladin is still serving justice by killing him.

 

[haakon1]

Thus, the individual's dogma–and therefore their interpretation of moral absolutes–is defined solely by the realm of the Lawful Good alignment in which they reside. It is not so much a question of "is it merciful to the goblin children" or "is it just?", but instead a question of how the needs of both spheres are met, and which side the paladin shies toward.

I challenge someone to take what I just wrote and use the mystical powers of brevity to make it half its current size.

It was perfect as is, but I believe I've cut it down to the essential part for gaming -- a paladin must be lawful good, which means being both lawful and good, in a balance that is a little different for every paladin, but must always be consistent with both.

I really enjoy seeing someone use real philosophy in this discussion. Not that I generally like philosophy, but it had to be done.

 

[haakon1]

Sounds like Clint Eastwood's character in 'Unforgiven'...

So, if we can use an example, how would a pali detect him (his rep was that he killed for as little as looking at him funny) during his previous gunslinger career? How about after he met his wife? How about during the movie? And last, when he 'gained revenge' in the last scene?

This isn't an attack. I thought this debat could use a focus.

Clint's character in "High Plains Drifter" is Lawful Good -- he's the literal embodiment of the wrath of God, an avenging angel, a type of paladin, whatever you want to call it.

In "Unforgiven", the old gunslinger who blew up trains and killed women and children and shot Hendershot in the face was CE. When he was married, he was N. When he hit the trail to get the "whore's gold" and feed his family, he was N, perhaps becoming NG. When he shot the "bad guys" but let them give water to the wounded one, he was N. When he went into town shot down the owner of the saloon ("If he didn't want to get shot, he shouldn't have decorated his saloon with my friend.") and told Hackman "deserves got nothing to do with it" he was N. When he threatened the whole town in a drunken rage with not harming any more whores on threat of death, I think he was still just N.

William Money is example a reformed evil character, he just didn't reform the whole way.

 

[Grugni]

You're not just calling him a murderer...he is one. He admits it freely. He kills because he is a racist. No other reason. Although, he does claim he did it because there was no one else to take care of them....

R i g h t . . . .

Ok, mister macho dwarf. Flip sides as you see fit to rationalize your "justice".

Here's a hypothetical situation for everyone. Let's say I grew up in the ghetto...filled with gangbangers. I spent everyday of my young life dodging bullets from one race or another. Later on in life, I walk down a street. I come upon a child of the race of gangbangers that had assualted me in my youth. I shoot this unarmed kid point-blank in this chest. Am I a murderer?

Hells Yes. On top of that I'd be a racist as well. I become easily fed up with these types of individuals in the really real world. They rationalize their prejudices away behind walls of excuses.

Now as an aside, kudos to the dwarf player. He's role-playing a racist very well...and that's oh so hard to do. (And his impotence toward slaughtering the evil children just proved it moreso)

He's still wrong.

The DM has already expressed that evil can be converted within her world. Conversion was an applicable route. That is what should have been done.

As a paladin you are an arbiter of justice. This dwarf needs to be brought to justice.

Call him out. If he doesn't go quietly, well he earned your righteous wrath. Paladins have backbones....use yours.

Of course then, what do I really know? I play in a world where there are Good priests of evil deities and every goblin/orc/troll (not to mention demon/devil/'loth) can be converted from paths of evil. Just as angels can fall from the heavens. If you were a paladin in my game world...and chose not to bring the dwarf to justice...then your paladin abilities would disappear.

Paladinhood is a lonely and difficult road.

~Funeris, the paladin.

Firstly how i see people in real life is completly differant to an in character representation...

Hyperthetical though your post was it was still based into a very real situation within some people real lives, and as such its complete nonsense... This is a fantasy environment and as such my dwarf plays his role as he see's fit. Grugni as is, is a racist towards goblinoids and I dont see how arguing this matter over and over with you is going to solve this scenario.

Let me ask this, How many of you have actually seen an elf or discussed with it his preferences and the same of dwarves, lemme guess none of you. Who are you to judge this character for his alleged crimes and actions towards what he see's as an inherently evil race.

As i have said earlier i do not believe Bruenor Battlehammer nor Ivan and Pikel would quibble over a couple of goblin children. In fact i seem to remember reading that Bruenor cut of a dogs leg to see if it tasted nice. evil act or not... Perhaps here we are forgetting this is fantasy and as such not real... How i react to stimuli within my real life is of course completely differant... I have no urge to go put a cap in some of the local yardie kids or to torture or mutilate animals.

Oh regarding the DM expressing her desire to see evil races changed, this was not brought to my attention until after the incident in question so sue me for being unaware, but again i dont really care, my argument stands....

As grugni would say....

" wha! they's only a couple of scrawny goblins"...

But before i go since it seems that my laundry has bee aired let me paint a picture of this perfect group...

we have two people who act like a married couple, bikering like children over the simplest of rules one of these two is also a back seat dmer. we have the paladin who originally brought this discussion up and who claimed before the rp took to " be diplomatic and offer surrender to all before we fight" and alas he is usually up there before the dwarf regardless of the opinion of the DM without a word being spoken. We have a rogue who although incredibly agile is no real problem and acts more like a mediator and is as i like to think the king of sarcasm. and finally we have the dm who requires the use of one of your backbones...

A perfect example of a dysfunctional adventerer party..

Now all of these people i like and in real life i consider friends, but some of these folk have brought this down on them by starting this whole debacle...

You don't like the fact i grasp the grim reality of my characters world feel free to flame this post some because i for one will not be replying to it again...

Grugni...

 

[Corben Willemne]

I have spoken to goblins and their really pissed!!! (sorry king of sarcasm apparently

Our group could have the classic components similar to the Lethal Weapon characters but have become embroilled in this pointless debate over a few children.
The dwarf has his reasons for actin as he does and so does the paladin. I sit back away from all these people and remain detached as the only elf present they all seem to hasty and over emotional to me!
Don't get me wrong the dwarfs actions are for me unconsionable (or however you spell it) and don not get my support. I just find that this discussion seems to be placing far to much import on berrating the dwarf and not enough on the origional question of what should the paladin do next. Disregarding those who jump on the SMITE HIM HE'S EVIL band wagon there has been little advise.
My suggestion to the player was to enroll me on his side, I'll steal the dwarfs wand of healing and then everytime he attacks the defenceless the paladin uses it to heal them. This way the dwarf not only does not get his own way but is paying for the lessons! This gives the paladin time to warn the dwarf of the consequences should he persue the course of action and give him ample time to reveal his motivations and to decide to rejoin the light side!!!
Anyhew the argument has only succeeded in upsetting both the dwarf's player and the DM. Why oh why do people put themselves in these positions? Thats rhetorical btw. As far as I see it the best advice so far is for the player to get together and figure out an entertaining way to move back to being a team. I still advocate that with all these religious types it should be easy as if their all following good gods then surely the dwarf will be bible bashed back into his pre beard days!!!! As i have had to point out to one of the other players these divine classes are not represented in the real world and cannot be compared to priests or the like. They should be held to a much higher set of ideals. Paladins especially. I'm waiting for one of these three divine PC's to take a positive lead in the party and provide the less moral guys with a clear framework to adventure within. Then if someone goes against the groups decision then you can berrate them honestly with the song of we told you so!!!!

As my friends mother used to say "I can't see why you just can't all get along and be friends."

 

[DevoutlyApathetic]

surely as a Paladin I can't just call some-one a murderer. Yes i am not happy he attacked children but i don't think calling him out for a fight would be a good act. The problem needs to be sorted out through diplomacy. Killing his character in combat i can't justify that to myself. It would be like taking the easy way out.

If you didn't want to play an outspoken enemy of evil you should have played a cleric.