Darkberserker
First Post
I believe that you should try and keep close to the wealth level per character as the CR's for monsters take character wealth into account.
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Player Problems with Character Wealth
- Thread starter Metus
- Start date
It's a poor craftsman that blames his tools - but to be fair those same craftsmen need their tools in the first place.
In the first game I ran, I used the straight treasure given from the modules (the adventure path series). One of my players came up with a similar complaint. After talking it over with the players, most of them were okay with the treasure that was being handed out, but a couple wanted items more readily available for purchase (mithril and adamantine items - commissioned magic items).
At the time, that wasn't the type of game I wanted to run, but I agreed to at least make some things 'available'. No one was really hurting in combat - but the party had left some treasure behind (didn't find it or whatever), didn't want it (meh - look 50 longswords, what are we goign to do with these?), or had spent it on disposal things (wands, potions, scrolls, raise dead, expensive material components).
Fact is, those wealth table guidelines are for creating new characters from scratch at whatever level. The characters will cross the threshhold manytimes at each level I'm guessing.
In another game I'm running, the characters are far above the wealth guidelines - that's working okay too. The characters are comfortably wealthy and know it - there's still only so much gear they lug around and there's only so much that they can buy.
In the first game I ran, I used the straight treasure given from the modules (the adventure path series). One of my players came up with a similar complaint. After talking it over with the players, most of them were okay with the treasure that was being handed out, but a couple wanted items more readily available for purchase (mithril and adamantine items - commissioned magic items).
At the time, that wasn't the type of game I wanted to run, but I agreed to at least make some things 'available'. No one was really hurting in combat - but the party had left some treasure behind (didn't find it or whatever), didn't want it (meh - look 50 longswords, what are we goign to do with these?), or had spent it on disposal things (wands, potions, scrolls, raise dead, expensive material components).
Fact is, those wealth table guidelines are for creating new characters from scratch at whatever level. The characters will cross the threshhold manytimes at each level I'm guessing.
In another game I'm running, the characters are far above the wealth guidelines - that's working okay too. The characters are comfortably wealthy and know it - there's still only so much gear they lug around and there's only so much that they can buy.
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Inconsequenti-AL
Breaks Games
First up, a quick question - are they playing against 'normal' opponents for their level or has the game been adjusted to suit the level of items?
I'm quite happy to play with any level of items... but I've had the most fun somewhere around the DMG suggested wealth values. Game just 'works better' there, in my opinion. Doesn't have to be exactly right, just somewhere in the ballpark. Frankly, yours doesn't sound too far off target. Somewhat low - but not exactly nothing at all?
Perhaps they simply want to play with some toys? There's all sorts of interesting looking gizmos in the DMG and they are fun to muck around with.
Could it be they're really asking for you to take things a little easier on them? Do they die or lose fights often?
Something seems to be impacting on their enjoyment of the game... If a few items can fix it, then it's an easy answer!
I think it's fun to customise stuff, rather than just giving away out the book items. Just add a couple of minor powers to it and see how they get on with it?
Can 'spike' certain items. Wouldn't do it all the time, but it can be useful if you wish to add an expensive item. I had a crystal ball that caused the users hair to grow an inch first time they used it (straight from the DMG curses section!). Nothing serious, but it makes the item rather difficult to sell... after all, how does the buyer know there aren't any other unexpected side effects...
Having said all that, I'll quote my GM's theory - what the players want and what they think they want are often quite different.
I'm quite happy to play with any level of items... but I've had the most fun somewhere around the DMG suggested wealth values. Game just 'works better' there, in my opinion. Doesn't have to be exactly right, just somewhere in the ballpark. Frankly, yours doesn't sound too far off target. Somewhat low - but not exactly nothing at all?
Perhaps they simply want to play with some toys? There's all sorts of interesting looking gizmos in the DMG and they are fun to muck around with.
Could it be they're really asking for you to take things a little easier on them? Do they die or lose fights often?
Something seems to be impacting on their enjoyment of the game... If a few items can fix it, then it's an easy answer!
I think it's fun to customise stuff, rather than just giving away out the book items. Just add a couple of minor powers to it and see how they get on with it?
Can 'spike' certain items. Wouldn't do it all the time, but it can be useful if you wish to add an expensive item. I had a crystal ball that caused the users hair to grow an inch first time they used it (straight from the DMG curses section!). Nothing serious, but it makes the item rather difficult to sell... after all, how does the buyer know there aren't any other unexpected side effects...
Having said all that, I'll quote my GM's theory - what the players want and what they think they want are often quite different.
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As a DM, I try to give out the money as per the character wealth chart. Every few levels above 6th I'll ask to see a character sheet from any of the players and see what they have in items and money. If they seem really low, I give them a "bump up" on their next outing, or they get rewarded with magic items from one of their beneficiaries.
However, I've seen my players substantially low at times, and they had been doing exceptionally well as they were. So... I don't really think that a group must have the amount in the charts to be successful.
I think that certain players simply enjoy the rewards more than others. Sometimes a player has a character concept that will take a lot of money to develop, and they might feel cheated somehow if they aren't able to advance as quickly as they thought they would... going by the set money value.
It is your game, though. If you think they're fine, then they probably are.
However, I've seen my players substantially low at times, and they had been doing exceptionally well as they were. So... I don't really think that a group must have the amount in the charts to be successful.
I think that certain players simply enjoy the rewards more than others. Sometimes a player has a character concept that will take a lot of money to develop, and they might feel cheated somehow if they aren't able to advance as quickly as they thought they would... going by the set money value.
It is your game, though. If you think they're fine, then they probably are.
Darklone
Registered User
The wealth guidelines are just a little help. You could easily have characters with much more cash than in the tables and they might still be underequipped for certain encounters. Just keep in mind to give most of them fly, some possibilities to breach DR and SR monsters and you're fine.
Classes are another thing... a group with only clerics scarcely needs any magic items. It makes them weaker, but they can still overcome most monsters.
Classes are another thing... a group with only clerics scarcely needs any magic items. It makes them weaker, but they can still overcome most monsters.
Arrgh! Mark!
First Post
Cop an earful?
Take it all away, and laugh at their lamentations as you throw them CR higher than the standard.
It sounds like your players don't get the idea of heroism. It's called laughing in the face of danger because it's DANGER! What fun is the game if they have the wand of slaying everything? No fun at all is the answer. Standard wealth my hairy bottom.
Make them treasure that +1 sword!
Take it all away, and laugh at their lamentations as you throw them CR higher than the standard.
It sounds like your players don't get the idea of heroism. It's called laughing in the face of danger because it's DANGER! What fun is the game if they have the wand of slaying everything? No fun at all is the answer. Standard wealth my hairy bottom.
Make them treasure that +1 sword!
Jeff Wilder
First Post
As folks have said, the CRs of creatures are set with the assumption that PCs are equipped close to the values given. As folks have also said, as long as you make adjustments to the challenges, you'll be okay.
One interesting thing is that DMs can run into the same "underequipped" problem even when PCs have items of a monetary value equal to or even greater that given in the DMG, if the items they have are expensive.
For example, if a PC is supposed to have 19,000 gp worth of gear, there's a huge difference between "1,000 gp worth of miscellaneous equipment and a +3 ring of protection" and "1,000 gp worth of miscellaneous gear, three 2,000 gp items, and three 4,000 gp items," even though the monetary value is the same. (I tend to prefer few-but-powerful magic items for my players, but, as I said, it plays the same as if they're underequipped.)
Another thing to keep in mind is that being underequipped has a disparate impact depending upon class. An underequipped fighter will have a much harder time meeting challenges of his CR (or close to it) than will an underequipped rogue. (Clerics and arcanists fall somewhere in the middle, IMO.)
One interesting thing is that DMs can run into the same "underequipped" problem even when PCs have items of a monetary value equal to or even greater that given in the DMG, if the items they have are expensive.
For example, if a PC is supposed to have 19,000 gp worth of gear, there's a huge difference between "1,000 gp worth of miscellaneous equipment and a +3 ring of protection" and "1,000 gp worth of miscellaneous gear, three 2,000 gp items, and three 4,000 gp items," even though the monetary value is the same. (I tend to prefer few-but-powerful magic items for my players, but, as I said, it plays the same as if they're underequipped.)
Another thing to keep in mind is that being underequipped has a disparate impact depending upon class. An underequipped fighter will have a much harder time meeting challenges of his CR (or close to it) than will an underequipped rogue. (Clerics and arcanists fall somewhere in the middle, IMO.)
Ogrork the Mighty
Explorer
I think the real issue here isn't the wealth levels in the DMG, it's that your players are unhappy. D&D is supposed to be enjoyable and if your players aren't enjoying it b/c they don't have the recommended levels of wealth, then I'd suggest boosting the treasure awards until they do. Now, if you started the campaign by stating it would be an impoverished one and the players agreed to it, then tough cookies. But I think they have a legitimate beef if the DMG states they should have X but instead they only have 75% of X.
IMC, the P is WAY over the recommended guidelines; mostly b/c of a few major magic items that have plot significance but also skew the results. I've also noticed that how long a character has been around definitely has an impact on overall wealth. Half the characters in our game have been around since the beginning, some 2-3 years ago. They've accumulated some pretty significant amounts of wealth (mostly in magic items). If they had gotten a lot of cash, it probably would have been spent on magic items anyways so there's no big difference.
But I haven't seen any problems with the wealth levels (e.g. the battles are still challenging).
IMC, the P is WAY over the recommended guidelines; mostly b/c of a few major magic items that have plot significance but also skew the results. I've also noticed that how long a character has been around definitely has an impact on overall wealth. Half the characters in our game have been around since the beginning, some 2-3 years ago. They've accumulated some pretty significant amounts of wealth (mostly in magic items). If they had gotten a lot of cash, it probably would have been spent on magic items anyways so there's no big difference.
But I haven't seen any problems with the wealth levels (e.g. the battles are still challenging).
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