Player wants to be with the bad guys

[GMforPowergamers]

Ok, so I am running a large game, and one player has been a problem again and again.

I don't want to bore you, but my world is just comeing out of a dark age... the whole known lands where ruled by an evil empire that was a mix of the worst part of the spanish inquastion, the witch burning of salem, and nazis...

They where human centric hunting down non humans and locking them in camps and killing them. They hunted down anyone useing supernatural powers...


during the time they where doing this they brought the tech level of the world up to just about renassanse levels... with basic guns and tools and art.

when we made characters the player asked if he could refluff artaficer and make him a member of that group... I said no, other players told him since they were non humans and magic or primal users... they would never trust him...

so then game went on, and they fought the few remaining of that group, and the player keeps trying to talk to them... even thought he is a reverant shaman. They wont work with him he is an abomnation in there eyes...


now he is talking about tradeing out his character, and he has asked if he coud agian play one of these bad guys... I again explained they are and this time even called them nazis...

he is trying to brain strom a way to make one work...


how do you tell someone "STOP BEING EVIL"

 

[edemaitre]

Don't touch it -- it's evil!

There are a few ways to deal with this:

-Simply tell the role-player that you prohibit evil Player Characters because they're disruptive to the adventuring party and your scenarios. He may not like it, but he can then go and find a game that's a better fit. Intraparty intrigue works better in some games (espionage, horror) than in others (heroic fantasy).

-Let him win. A Player Character that "turns to the Dark Side" should expect his friends to eventually lose trust in him, the (nonhuman) authorities to hunt him, and even his new allies to be wary. If the rest of the party is unified, he could be thrown out or attacked (preferably in character).

-Talk it out. Why does he want to play a member of the human groups that are oppressing demihumans? Is it because he just wants to be contrary? Does he have an idea for someone who starts out on the wrong side but redeems himself? Does he feel that your campaign is too dualistic -- black vs. white, without shades of gray? Are there options he's looking for (artificer/shaman)? How does the rest of your group feel?

I usually tell new gamers or people just joining my groups that I don't allow evil characters, but good characters can come from evil nations or turn from their former paths. The Drow exile, vampire with a soul, or assassin developing a conscience is a common enough archetype. It's a big role-playing challenge, but better than constant resentment or arguing. Agree to disagree, go your separate ways, or compromise. Good luck!

 

[GMforPowergamers]

he wants to be part of there tech stuff... and art stuff and be a good guy. Partialy he just like playing contrary... in star wars for years he wanted to be the one empire guy in the rebel game... when we played an empire game he wanted to be a jedi.

In our mutants and master minds game set in the DCU of batman beyond he wanted to be from another dimension where he was James parker the grandson of spiderman...

In our WW2 spy game he wanted to intern with dr mengila when we were french underground...



he now says "They can't all be evil...some nazi's where good guys" (HIS WORDS) I tried to tell him he can be a member of one of my 5 kingdoms... infact galavar is stufying chemistry at it's base level and has taken over the base industry of the bad guys after kicking there buts.... but they are good and use magic too and are ruled by a half elf. Infact there elite special forces are the musketeeers...

He doesn't want to be one of there new up and coming guys he wants to be a good guy who is instantly excepted in a 95% non human group as part of these over the top genasidal SOBs... and all he keeps saying is "SOme of them have to be good" and When I explain that the good guys rebeled over through the bad guys and became the 5 kingdoms it just is not sinking in...

my example was not all germans were nazis... so in 1965 beign a german was fine...BUT in 1965 being a Nazi who still works with nazis is not... advance to 2011 and it is really hard to try to get a 25 year old who willing works with nazi's as anything but an SOB...


a little more bacground, the 5 kingdoms where formed 60+ years ago in game... the badguys have been an underground movement and some remnents living in the southern swamps... he wants to be from there...

 

[lostingeneral]

So you're saying he doesn't really want to be bad guy, but rather a former member of their faction who is now attempting to oppose them?

Call me insane, but I don't really see what the problem is. I actually think that's a decent character concept, and it's best to roleplay with a concept you're excited about.

I don't think it makes much sense to say "anybody who didn't want to be with these guys rebelled and that's that, there's nobody left with any sort of a conscience." I can think of all kinds of ways that somebody aligned with an evil faction might feel compelled to stay with the group, even though they don't agree with it personally. Is it so unreasonable to think that perhaps somebody could fit this description and then finally leave, even after the large scale rebellion took place? Somebody who stayed longer than they maybe should have, but had a change of heart in the end?

Indeed, in 1965 being a Nazi may not have been acceptable, but that does't mean there were none, and I find it hard to believe all of them were in that position entirely voluntarily. Most, certainly - maybe the majority by a very long shot- but not all. What if his character's whole family has been in this evil faction, and he's been raised in it. They were somebody important once, when the empire actually mattered, and he's been brought up with all of this hate and anger, and he was the first one in this long line of former nobles that just said "no more."

Honestly the more I go on here, the more I'm feeling that this guy has a fairly solid character building. I just don't see where the harm is in letting him play this character.

 

[S'mon]

What if his character's whole family has been in this evil faction, and he's been raised in it. They were somebody important once, when the empire actually mattered, and he's been brought up with all of this hate and anger, and he was the first one in this long line of former nobles that just said "no more."

Honestly the more I go on here, the more I'm feeling that this guy has a fairly solid character building. I just don't see where the harm is in letting him play this character.

That does sound like a solid character concept, if that is what the player is going for. Maybe the OP could talk to his player and discuss if this is a way the character could work.

OTOH if the player just wants to play a PC with goals opposed to those of the other PCs and the campaign premise then the OP should feel free to squelch him.

 

[Neonchameleon]

he now says "They can't all be evil...some nazi's where good guys" (HIS WORDS)

Two words: Oskar Schindler.

He doesn't want to be one of there new up and coming guys he wants to be a good guy who is instantly excepted

Here's the sticking point. Although not so much if it's an underground movement. (Well, that and his general approach).

and all he keeps saying is "SOme of them have to be good" and When I explain that the good guys rebeled over through the bad guys and became the 5 kingdoms it just is not sinking in...

And then what? You think that no one ever gets an attack of conscience when coming face to face with killing someone? You think that no one ever met someone they were taught to despise and found they weren't so bad? You think that no one ever remained with the bad guys for love? Or family? Or did the bad guys create an unbreakable ritual to remove all free will from those who remained loyal to them.

my example was not all germans were nazis... so in 1965 beign a german was fine...BUT in 1965 being a Nazi who still works with nazis is not... advance to 2011 and it is really hard to try to get a 25 year old who willing works with nazi's as anything but an SOB...

a little more bacground, the 5 kingdoms where formed 60+ years ago in game... the badguys have been an underground movement and some remnents living in the southern swamps... he wants to be from there...

In which case his parents were Nazis. He was the child of two nazis and grew up as one. And when he grew up he realised what an evil ideology it was and turned his back on them. All children of Nazis should be damned for who their parents were? Or children of Nazis wouldn't be brought up as Nazis? Or being brought up as a Nazi means you forever remain one? Because you seem to be arguing at least one of those three.

 

[vaultdweller]

If the player has no intention of using the background to oppose and "grief" the party, then I'm really failing to see what the problem is.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

If the player has no intention of using the background to oppose and "grief" the party, then I'm really failing to see what the problem is.

Ok maybe I am not pointing out how over the top evil these people are... No player wants to deal with the "shades of grey" with them... It is ok to kill them because they are that evil... I even in my cpaign write up list them as always chaotic evil... Like demons


We don't (except him) want to humanize these vile villains

 

[MatthewJHanson]

Ok maybe I am not pointing out how over the top evil these people are... No player wants to deal with the "shades of grey" with them... It is ok to kill them because they are that evil... I even in my cpaign write up list them as always chaotic evil... Like demons

Reminds me of drow.

And nobody ever wanted to play those.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Ok maybe I am not pointing out how over the top evil these people are... No player wants to deal with the "shades of grey" with them... It is ok to kill them because they are that evil... I even in my cpaign write up list them as always chaotic evil... Like demons


We don't (except him) want to humanize these vile villains

The more you say the more you make me think that I'd want to play one of them in your campaign to humanise them.

But you want to prevent it? Ask him how he feels about having a PC who has eaten a live baby - because that's part of the induction ritual. One of those rites that binds you together because you know anyone else would kill you for it.