Player who can't get the numbers right

[Wolfwood2]

Nice lady, but not a strong gamer. Me, I need to shut up. That's the problem in nutshell.

Okay, so there's this player who is in a couple of the games I play in. She seems incapable of getting the numbers to add up correctly for her character on a consistent basis. She's always messing up adding up her bonuses or forgetting a rule. (I swear we have to remind her that she can't move and full attack at least once every session.) Don't get the wrong idea, she's not intentionally cheating. I know because most of the time her mistakes are to her detriment.

Here is the thing. I am beginning to get her really angry because I am always asking her to check her work. "Are you sure you added that up right?" I would not do it so often, but it's about 50/50 that I will catch she made a mistake.

Often I can tell (or suspect) that she's getting it wrong simply from watching her roll an attack and damage and seeing what the numbers add up to. And it's pretty sad that I can add the numbers in my head and get a higher accuracy rate that her being able to consult her character sheet. Give her credit, she does try to write everything out beforehand, but even then every time her character changes in some way, it's good odds that she's messed up the new formula. (Today, upon being questioned, she hadn't figured out the damage increase from her character getting a belt of giant strength properly.)

I am honestly, honestly trying to keep my mouth shut. I know it's especially galling for her when I ask her to confirm something and it turns out she has in fact gotten it right. It would sure annoy me. I don't do it to the other players, because they generally get things right.

One point of view might be that I should just keep my mouth shut and let the DM handle it. I try, but then I feel bad letting her short herself on attack rolls and damage all the time because she's forgotten to add in all the fiddley little bonuses that D&D provides. And it should be pointed out that I'm not the only one who corrects her. I probably just do it a little more often.

I really wish she'd just tell me off when I push too hard. You'd think that a 50-something Navy veteran wouldn't be shy, and it wouldn't offend me to be cussed out. She just grits her teeth in frustration a lot, though.

Sigh. More venting than asking advice here. I feel a little bad about today's game, because I think she left in a bad mood and it might (or might not) be because of me.

 

[pogre]

What about offering her a cheat sheet if you are the DM?

In fact, offer cheat sheets to everyone.

 

[QuaziquestGM]

Is she having trouble with adding the dice, or just adding the modifiers?

If she is having problems adding the dice, teach her to group them by groups of 10 or 20.

If it is adding the modifier.....

what class is she playing?

Switch her to an arcanist.

I know... Magic seems more complicated than "Fighter stuff"...but the problem here is her addition skill.

Ranged touch attack nearly always hit and can usually be determined by just looking at the d20.

The damage bonus is usually class level.

If range is an issue, that gets counted out on the battle grid.

 

[roguerouge]

Repeat after me: the point of the game is for everybody to have fun.

Nit-picking is anxiety-provoking and will only exacerbate the issue. Let it go and sit where you can't see the dice.

If the problem is shifting bonuses, put the onus on the spell-caster to provide chits that remind the recipients that they have a bless or a bull's strength going on.

 

[Delta]

I call this a good case-study that D&D is too complicated for the great majority of the population. If all your friends are engineers & computer & math geeks, it's easy to overlook this. This is why I don't think the hobby can possibly grow without radical scaling-back of the game's complexity.

Now attempts at helpful comments:

(1) What class does she play? Some specifics of what actions she's using might help.

(2) *Have someone audit the character sheet when she levels or makes other changes.*

 

[Wolfwood2]

I call this a good case-study that D&D is too complicated for the great majority of the population. If all your friends are engineers & computer & math geeks, it's easy to overlook this. This is why I don't think the hobby can possibly grow without radical scaling-back of the game's complexity.

Now attempts at helpful comments:

(1) What class does she play? Some specifics of what actions she's using might help.

(2) *Have someone audit the character sheet when she levels or makes other changes.*

1) She's a barbarian/ranger with a spiked chain. So mostly it's running up and attacking things. She doesn't use trips or disarms or anything fancy like that. She doesn't even have to figure out power attacks, since she refuses to take Power Attack. 'What is my to-hit bonus' and 'what is my damage bonus' are the only questions she should have to get right.

2) Who am I to have someone audit her character sheet? If she wanted someone to audit her sheet, presumably she'd just ask.

I just... I get so frustrated sometimes and obviously she picks up on it. Today she asks (in all seriousness), "Doesn't raging give me a bonus to my dexterity?" No, no it doesn't. She's only been playing a barbarian every other week for five months or so. God forbid that in five months she should know backwards and forwards what a barbarian's rage does.

By the way, I didn't even answer the "does it give me a dexterity bonus" question. I wandered off to the snack table and let the rest of the table answer it. I've got no desire to be her personal rules police.

 

[Mystical Forest]

I call this a good case-study that D&D is too complicated for the great majority of the population.

Yup.

Also, it's not the math. I have a player much like this in one of my games. It's not about being able to do math.

The problem is that there is so much to keep track of and so many things are interrelated it's extraordinarily easy to become confused. My player even uses HeroForge to do the math for her and she still gets confused as to what's what (oddly, she also keeps forgetting that you can conduct a full attack after moving).

A good example is that belt. If I were to put words into her mouth based on my experience with my player, it's this: If the purpose of the belt, and the reason the party gave it to me, was to increase the damage when I fight, then why doesn't it just do +2 damage? Why do I have to add it to my strength and then remember to add it again to my weapon? Why do I have to add it twice? Does my weapon add to my strength too? Why is it only one way? How come my weapon is +2 damage but the belt, which is also +2, only adds +1? Now ... which plus is it that adds to my damage? The +1 or the +2? If it's only +1, then why is it a +2 belt? Why do I need to keep track of strength and weapon damage--when the only time strength ever comes into play is when I do damage?

Wait, I don't count these bonuses when I use my crossbow? I have to start all over again for that? /sigh

And so on.

Anyone who's playing the game can add +1 and +2. It's just that D&D makes no sense to someone new to the game, as described above.

The solution, as I see it, is practice. The more she plays the more she'll get the hang of it.

And I would very strongly advise that you not correct her any more. It's only going to frustrate her and make her less positive about the game in general. Instead, let her have fun--even if the numbers are to her detriment. The important thing is that she have fun at the table and if she's adding +5 instead of +8 then, really, it doesn't make any difference to her.

Let the numbers blend into the background and let her have fun smashing things and playing the game.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I've seen this in several RPGs- mostly complicated ones like 3.5 and HERO.

But it also happens in fairly simple games as well.

A simple note card- laminated if you wish- featuring the total mods for her most common actions would probably do the trick.

Or you could just continue to correct her.

Just keep reminding yourself- the play is the thing.

 

[Wycen]

My original longer post somehow got eaten so here is a smaller version.

It is quite likely she will never get it right and it doesn't matter what her class/feats/equipment/level is. From my own experience she could make tick marks on her sheet and forget to erase them, pick up a shield and forget you can't get the AC bonus with a 2 handed weapon, has kids/family/job and wont remember from week to week because she's there to socialize, is overwhelmed by levelling too fast, thus her numbers change before she can get used to them. The list goes on and on and there is probably nothing you can do about it.

You need to figure out how you'll handle it. That's my take.

 

[king_ghidorah]

A dear (and departed) friend was famous in our group for never, ever remembering the modifiers, the math, or even which dice to roll. He was a great role-player, but he didn't have a head for the minutiae of rules nor an interest in figuring it out. He'd say what he wanted to do or how he'd build a character, and we'd help him figure it out. We'd help him update his character sheet, and make sure it was all easy to find.

He was smart and capable, but none of the rules stuff mattered to him. He was there to play out the story. We liked having him there, so we helped him figure it out.

Sorry the situation is more frustrating for you, but nobody at our table found it troublesome. Didn't mean we didn't make fun of him. ("C'mon, Matt, how can you ask us what die to roll? They call it the d20 system!")

Nice lady, but not a strong gamer. Me, I need to shut up. That's the problem in nutshell.

Okay, so there's this player who is in a couple of the games I play in. She seems incapable of getting the numbers to add up correctly for her character on a consistent basis. She's always messing up adding up her bonuses or forgetting a rule. (I swear we have to remind her that she can't move and full attack at least once every session.) Don't get the wrong idea, she's not intentionally cheating. I know because most of the time her mistakes are to her detriment.

Here is the thing. I am beginning to get her really angry because I am always asking her to check her work. "Are you sure you added that up right?" I would not do it so often, but it's about 50/50 that I will catch she made a mistake.

Often I can tell (or suspect) that she's getting it wrong simply from watching her roll an attack and damage and seeing what the numbers add up to. And it's pretty sad that I can add the numbers in my head and get a higher accuracy rate that her being able to consult her character sheet. Give her credit, she does try to write everything out beforehand, but even then every time her character changes in some way, it's good odds that she's messed up the new formula. (Today, upon being questioned, she hadn't figured out the damage increase from her character getting a belt of giant strength properly.)

I am honestly, honestly trying to keep my mouth shut. I know it's especially galling for her when I ask her to confirm something and it turns out she has in fact gotten it right. It would sure annoy me. I don't do it to the other players, because they generally get things right.

One point of view might be that I should just keep my mouth shut and let the DM handle it. I try, but then I feel bad letting her short herself on attack rolls and damage all the time because she's forgotten to add in all the fiddley little bonuses that D&D provides. And it should be pointed out that I'm not the only one who corrects her. I probably just do it a little more often.

I really wish she'd just tell me off when I push too hard. You'd think that a 50-something Navy veteran wouldn't be shy, and it wouldn't offend me to be cussed out. She just grits her teeth in frustration a lot, though.

Sigh. More venting than asking advice here. I feel a little bad about today's game, because I think she left in a bad mood and it might (or might not) be because of me.