Players don't provide wish lists... What would you do?

[Dykstrav]

I'm gearing up to run a paragon-tier campaign that's been going on since 1st level, way back in June of 2008. I've got a problem that I haven't been able to resolve, despite frank discussions with my players and several different approaches that I've tried. Please give me insights as to your own thoughts and how you'd handle this situation.

Basically, the entire time I've been playing 4E, I've only had two players submit magic item wish lists for their characters. My players just won't do it.

When I ask players for their wish lists, they usually tell me that they don't care what they get and I should just pick stuff for them. Others tell me that placement of treasure is part of adventure design, and they don't want to do it--it's supposed to be the DM's job.

After I explained that I want the players to give me wish lists, I got one wish list from one player. A new player who joined our group later gave me one. Otherwise, I just don't get them.

At first, I tried guessing at what the characters would need, giving them only weapons, armor, implements, and defensive items (basically, things that increases defenses or attacks). The players kept what they liked, sold what they didn't, and bemoaned the fact that you only get 20% value from sold magic items. Later on, there were complaints that there wasn't enough treasure because they only kept about half of what they found and ditched the rest.

We had a discussion about the issue, wherein I explained that I'm guessing about what items they want and I'd like a wish list. Some players told me that they'd work one up, others reacted with an, "Oh, I understand why our gear sucks now" reaction. I didn't get a single wish list.

Next, I tried giving them straight-up cash equal to the value of magic items in their parcels rather than guessing. My rationale was that they'd feel flush with cash and use that money to craft whatever items they wanted. Raw cash gave them the option to get whatever magic items they want, I reasoned. A few sessions later, I got complaints about how the characters are not finding magic items.

We had a discussion about the issue, wherein I explained why they were finding tons of raw cash instead of magic items. Some players told me that they'd work one up, others reacted with an, "Oh, crafting your own magic items is expensive" reaction. I didn't get a single wish list.

It's really frustrating the hell out of me because the players understand when they're lagging behind. When they miss attack rolls or a monster hits them by a single point or two, they openly discuss how they wish they had better items. They want magic items for their characters, but they also want me to take shots in the dark as to what items to give them. Every time I hear such a discussion, it's really getting to boil my blood because it's been going on for over a year and a half now. There's no observable progress being made and I feel like people just aren't communicating with me or with each other.

For this upcoming campaign, I've been considering a new approach. What I'm thinking is that I'm only going to give out very basic magic items: magic weapons, magic armor, and implements. No special abilities, just flat bonuses. I've asked for wish lists again and haven't gotten any. But I'm not going to spend an hour or so in my adventure design scouring 4E material for items to give to the characters--I feel that this is part of character design and that my time can be better spent elsewhere.

Am I being reasonable? Are there other options?

Thanks for your time and insights.

 

[Dragonblade]

Whenever I give out items, I just say you find an item of X level. For example, if they are due to find an item of 10th level, I just say you find a 10th level item. I then let the players decide amongst themselves who gets it. Then that player can choose an item of that level or lower from any WotC book.

It works well for us. Additionally, I also just let my players buy and sell items at cost whenever they are in a major city, or would reasonably have access to an NPC who could facilitate such a deal.

I have found that in 4e items are so well balanced for their level that I no longer really need to worry about vetting things so much before allowing it in my game.

 

[Moon_Goddess]

I'd just say forget it and use inherent bonus system and forget about magic items

 

[FireLance]

This is the system I'm using in my campaign and it seems to be working out quite well so far. Why don't you see what your players think of it? Tell them that instead of you giving out magic items and treasure, you are going to abstract the party finding them as follows:

1st-level characters start with 100 gp as per the rules. From then on, every time they gain a level, they gain a magic item of up to new level +1 and gold equal to one-fifth the value of a magic item of new level -1. For example, when a 1st-level character gains 2nd level, they get a 3rd-level magic item and 72 gp (one-fifth the value of a 1st-level magic item).

The players are free to narrate how they acquired the new magic item and gold. The most obvious approach is to say that they found it in a treasure room or treasure chest at the end of the adventure. However, they could also have received a reward or a gift from a patron.

The advantage to this approach is that the players don't have to think and plan far in advance - they just need to pick a new magic item every time they gain a level. However, if the players feel that this method of gaining treasure seems rather artificial and contrived, you could just weave opportunities for the players to choose what reward they want into the storyline - for example, every once in a while, the players go on a mission for the local ruler, a powerful wizard/artificer or a rich merchant house who has the resources to provide the PCs with the magic items they request (within reason) or to trade one magic item for another of equal value (so that the players don't suffer a 80% loss when they do so).

 

[pawsplay]

Are there other options?

Since your players are, I'm guessing, not membes of a hive mind, I'm going to suggest you take a closer look. Is there one player who asked for "whatever" and another who didn't like the 20% rule? And so forth. That may help guide your decisions.

So... they've put things in your hands. You've given them opportunity to have treasure, you've tried to give them useful magic items, and you've given them cash and the opportunity to make their own. It sounds to me you've provided every reasonable opportunity for the players to be happy. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest some, perhaps even most, of your players are happy with your GMing.

The 20% rule is illogical, and wish lists make for boring treasure hauls, so I can sympathize with your players to a great extent. I could see myself making such complaints because I am complaining about the system, not the campaign.

 

[billd91]

But I'm not going to spend an hour or so in my adventure design scouring 4E material for items to give to the characters--I feel that this is part of character design and that my time can be better spent elsewhere.

For me, this has always been one of the best parts of designing a treasure hoard. It's always been a part of my adventure design. Character design is what the PCs do (or not do) with it.

If this is what 4e is to a lot of people, it's underscoring my alienation from the game, I guess.

 

[Beginning of the End]

Reading between the lines:

(1) Your players like the excitement of discovering nifty gear; or

(2) They find their immersion and/or suspension of disbelief violated through the wish list process; or

(3) Both.

OTOH, they still want to be able to customize their gear (otherwise they'd just use the stuff you're giving them).

I'd recommend either allowing goods to be sold at 50% of value (which will give them the "nifty discovery" bit they aren't getting with cash treasure while still giving them more money to customize their gear.

Or, better yet, I'd look at doubling or tripling the number of items you're placing in the treasure (while keeping the 20% resale value). Since the treasure isn't properly customized, they'll still end up selling most of it and you're increasing the amount of "oooh, look at the bling we found" enjoyment while also allowing them to get enough money to customize their gear.

 

[Truename]

I'm gearing up to run a paragon-tier campaign that's been going on since 1st level, way back in June of 2008. I've got a problem that I haven't been able to resolve, despite frank discussions with my players and several different approaches that I've tried. Please give me insights as to your own thoughts and how you'd handle this situation.

I hate magic item placement in 4e. It's time consuming, thankless, and my players wouldn't give me wish-lists either. And the few times they did, it completely broke immersion to have the players say, "oh, that's the (blah) I wanted."

So for the latest campaign, I switched to inherent bonuses (with my players' agreement). Now all the essential magic is taken care of and I have two less items to place, leaving me free to give out the interesting/plotworthy stuff I wanted to. I'm also able to place treasure that might not be found without worrying about it, and I'm less concerned about meeting the exact level guidelines.

We've only played one session this way so far, so I don't know how my players will feel about it, but from my perspective, I'm a lot happier.

 

[Timeboxer]

I basically have arranged to do things this way: When I give the party an item, it subtly directs how they play. The magic bow that gives on-hit penalties to ranged attacks? That encourages the ranger to duel the other ranged enemies. The item that gives a bonus to rituals? That encourages more ritual use. And so on.

And if they don't like it -- they can just sell it. Personally, I really enjoy getting magic items I don't know about beforehand, because being resourceful can be a lot of fun.

 

[Chris Knapp]

At my table, I, as a player, drew funny looks when I retrained from Great Axe to Great Sword. We all had decided early on to not do wish lists (for exactly the 2 reasons stated above) and when we found an awesome great sword artifact no one could use, I figured I might never see a better axe, so I retrained.

One player then laughed and said, "Luke Skywalker wasn't trained in the lightsaber, but his DM gave him one, and you didn't expect him to sell it, did you?"