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D&D (2024) Playing with Subclasses: how flexible is subclass design in the playtest so far?

Kobold Stew

Last Guy in the Airlock
Supporter
One of the great advantages of establishing a standard progression for subclasses (abilities at level 3, 6, 10, and 14) is that in theory subclasses could be more flexible, and applied not only to the intended class but also used by others. Sure Life Clerics are the best healers, but what does it mean to have a Life Paladin or a Life Bard?

The purpose of this thread is to think about this. It won’t be for everyone – I get that (and if so , feel free to move on). But the questions I want to think about are:

1. What changes to the current (playtest) designs would be needed to make a given subclass flexible?
2. Do interesting builds emerge that might be fun to play, and are they not-obviously-underpowered?
3. Are there any combinations that are OP or otherwise “break” the game?

One way to think about this is to test the robustness of the subclasses as they are developing. And to think about how rulesets might interact.

A few initial assumptions:
  • Since some of the abilities key of a resource pool from the primary class, we’ll grant access to a minimum of one use per long rest for classes without that ability. This does not grant the benefits of that ability, though.
  • If an ability keys off of “cleric level”, then we’ll use the level of the class for which Life has become a subclass.
In the next post, I’ve put these in tiers of robustness/flexibility. Not necessarily power, fun potential, etc. I accept that none of the pairings are going to be as effective as they would with their intended class, but the discussion below suggests that it could remain a desirable choice for some players in any case.

I'd welcome your thoughts.
Best “new” combinations from my point of view:
  • Life Bard.
  • Thief Barbarian
  • Hunter Druid
 

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Kobold Stew

Last Guy in the Airlock
Supporter
A-TIER

LIFE (CLERIC)
Classes: (best) Bard, Druid, Ranger, Paladin [spellcasting with healing spells];
(possible) Wizard, Sorcerer, and Warlock [spellcasting but no healing spells].
Level 3: Domain Spells. Works as written. [gives everyone some healing spells, but not Cure Wounds/Healing Word.]
Level 3: Disciple of Life. Works as written [bonus healing for healing spells]
Level 6: Preserve Life. Requires Channel Divinity, which currently only exists for cleric and Paladin. 1 use per long rest (assumption a), keying off class level (assumption b)
Level 10: Blessed Healing. Works as written [heal self when casting healing spells]
Level 14: Supreme Healing. Works as Written [max healing].

I see no balance issues with allowing any class to take this. All but the level 6 ability work as written; level 6 ability requires initial assumptions, but no more. It becomes a reasonable choice for four other classes beyond Cleric, and a suboptimal choice for three further classes.

THIEF (ROGUE)
Classes: Any, though Bard, Monk, Fighter, and Barbarian might be best.
Level 3: Fast Hands [search or Lock pick as a bonus action.] As worded, it builds on cunning action, but since it is just expanding that use, and isn’t giving access to the class ability itself, it should work as written (assumption a).
Level 3: Second Story Work. [climb speed and extra jumping]. Works as written (though it will be re-written to reflect new jump rules. Climb speed may be redundant with some builds (e.g. Ranger).
Level 6: Supreme Sneak [stealth advantage when in Light or no armor]. Works as written.
Level 10: Use Magic Device [benefits for attunement, item charges, and scroll use]. Works as written; the character will benefit if trained in Arcana.
Level 14: Thief’s Reflexes [second bonus action from options available through cunning action]. Since this does not require Cunning Action with the first (normal) bonus action, this ability seems to grant any cunning action option (i.e. Disengage, Dash, Hide, or Fast hands [Search, sleight of hand]). Works as written, and by my read, it gives access to all the options from Cunning Action, even if the player is not a rogue.

This seems written to be ported to other classes. I see no balance issues, and a Barbarian Thief is well-supported in the fiction by Conan (no multiclassing).

B-TIER

HUNTER (RANGER)
Classes: Best for Druid, but possible for Fighter, Rogue, Barbarian, Monk (and technically any class); level 6 requires use of Hunter’s Mark (can be gained by Magic Initiate feat for 1 use/long rest).
Level 3: Hunter’s Prey [extra damage on attack action if already wounded]. Works as written.
Level 6: Hunter’s Lore [know about foes marked with Hunter’s Mark]. Works as Written, but in order for this not to be a dead level, requires Druid or Magic Initiate. This ability keeps it out of the A-tier.
Level 10: Multiattack [conjure barrage on spell list, can be downcast]. Only the druid will have this on their spell list naturally. To be useful, we can assume a minimum opportunity to cast 1/long rest (assumption a).
Level 14: Superior Hunter’s Defense [replicates Rogue 5 Evasion, and allows some damage to be redirected]. Works as written, and is not a dead level for rogues (though it may be a bit underwhelming as a capstone).

Apart from the dependency of Hunter’s Lore on the Hunter’s Mark Spell, this works fairly well. Non-casters could be given one use of the ability (without the other aspects of hunter’s Mark) per long rest without affecting balance, I feel.

C-TIER

LORE (BARD)
Classes: Any.
Level 3: Bonus Proficiencies [three skills]. Works as written.
Level 3: Cutting Words [negatively affect an attack or ability check]. Only Bards have bardic inspiration, and so we assume one use per long rest (assumption a), and the die escalates as it would for a bard (d6, d8 at 5, d10 at 10, d12 at 15).
Level 6: Cunning Inspiration [use the higher of two rolls with Bardic inspiration]. Works as written, but would only apply to the one use of Cutting words per long rest.
Level 10: Improved Cutting Words [add CHA modifier to Bardic Inspiration]. Works as written, but would only apply to the one use of Cutting words per long rest. I’ll assume a minimum bonus of +1, for those whose Charisma is 11 or lower (cf. assumption a).
Level 14: Peerless Skill [roll Bardic Inspiration o failed ability checks]. Again, works as written, but this can only be used 1/long rest. I’ll assume the minimum is a separate die than the one for cutting words.

Only the Bonus proficiencies are separate from the Bardic Inspiration mechanic, which makes this the worst designed class for the purpose of this experiment: it is built to be dependent on the main Bard Chassis. Nevertheless, no special assumptions are needed to give the class 3 skills, one use of cutting words that continues to become more and more powerful, and one guaranteed successful use of Peerless skill.

DEVOTION (PALADIN)
Class: Any.
Level 3: Oath Spells [have several spells available on list, with one free casting total/long rest]. Works as written.
Level 3: Sacred Weapon [use Channel Divinity to make +CHA, radiant weapon]. Only Clerics and Paladins have Channel Divinity, but if we assume a single use per long rest (assumption a), then this works.
Level 6: Smite of Protection [you or ally get 1d8 THP]. As written, this triggers off of Divine Smite, which no class other than Paladin receives. However, since the pool of Divine Smites corresponds to spell slots, one “solution” would be to allow the effect with the expenditure of any spell slot (so no Divine Smite ability, but you can swap any spell slot for 1d8+spell level THP). I do not know if that is in any way “better” than a single use 1/long rest (assumption a).
Level 10: Aura of Devotion [you and allies immune to Charmed]. This also presumes a Paladin ability, but the fact that it is additive to another aura does not stop this aura existing in independently. As written, this ability exists as an aura that extends 10’ around you in every direction, but not through Total Cover.
Level 14: Holy Nimbus [radiant damage from aura]. Works as written, building off level 10 ability.

Much of this subclass keys off of Paladin abilities, but it is possible to make this work as a subclass for another class without much special pleading. Sacred Weapoon is underpowered, Smite of Protection is underwhelming, and it is hard to see a class who would really benefit from Devotion. For a Bard, Sorcerer, or Wizard it would represent an expanded spell list which could be interesting. The player would have to discuss with the DM as to whether the tenets associated with Devotion would need to be followed.

D-TIER

MOON (DRUID)
Class: Any except Monk and Rogue, particularly a strength build or a species which has an enhanced unarmed strike.
Level 3: Combat Wild Shape [bonus action for Unarmed Strike]. This ability grants three abilities, two of which are keyed to Wild Shape. Wild Shape is not a subclass feature, though, and so the 1/long default does not apply. The Ability for Abjuration spells is irrelevant for non-Wildshapers, as is Swift transformation. Someone from another class would not benefit from these features. However, the Quick Attack ability is not constrained by Wild Shape, and it gives the ability to make an unarmed strike as a bonus action. This is an ability Monks already have, so this would be a dead level for them, and all Rogues have good things to use their Bonus Action on every turn in any case.
Level 6: Elemental Wild Shape. Depends on having Wild Shape; does not work.
Level 10: Elemental Strike. Depends on having Wild Shape; does not work.
Level 14: Thousand Forms. Works as written.

This is the only subclass that really doesn’t work with other classes. The Level 3 ability gives a very powerful use for a Bonus action, which not every class have – and I think there must be some builds that could capitalize on this. Nevertheless, without re-writing, levels 6 and 10 are functionally dead levels.
 

Hexblade seems like a no-brainer for Paladins, Bards, and Sorcerers. Access to the expanded spell list gives plenty of popular spells including shield, blur, a couple smites, cone of cold, etc. Nothing keys off Warlock class stuff so no weirdness there. It comes with all the weapon and armor proficiencies you'll need (and heavy armor is one feat away if your class lacks it). Beyond the Charisma casters I could see this working with any class.

Battle Smith with Rogue and Wizard. The rogue gets an ally to defend them and help activate sneak attack. Wizards get a tank to defend them that is easy to fix. Int to attacks isn't as useful for rogues but the Wizard can use weapons and free up a cantrip or two for other things. Extra attack is solid for both though Wizards might see less benefit from it as they get more spell slots. Arcane Jolt and Improved Defender aren't glamorous but a little healing or extra damage isn't a bad thing. Extra attack and Int to attack and damage aren't big for martial but a Fighter, Barbarian, or Monk with a pet sounds good to me.
 

Clint_L

Hero
I don't see it happening, but it's a cool concept. It would obviously make balancing classes and subclasses exponentially harder, though, and would be a godsend to optimizers.
 

Kobold Stew

Last Guy in the Airlock
Supporter
I don't see it happening, but it's a cool concept. It would obviously make balancing classes and subclasses exponentially harder, though, and would be a godsend to optimizers.
Would it? Tell me how, please. Using the examples we have seen (above) what can an optimizer do by borrowing a subclass and putting it in another class?
 

Clint_L

Hero
I dunno off the top of my head, and I don’t really care too spend to much time exploring hypotheticals, but one thing I can guarantee is that if you increase the number of combinations by a factor of ten, optimizers will be all over it and find every possible exploit and OP combination. It’s what they do.
 


Horwath

Legend
If this could work, ALL subclasses must have same "power" budget and that seems like lot's of work to do.

might be better jut to ditch sub-classes completely and turn their features into feats that all can pick(with prerequirements and level limits) and just add more feats at levels 2,3,6,10,14 and 18.
 


Kobold Stew

Last Guy in the Airlock
Supporter
I dunno off the top of my head, and I don’t really care too spend to much time exploring hypotheticals, but one thing I can guarantee is that if you increase the number of combinations by a factor of ten, optimizers will be all over it and find every possible exploit and OP combination. It’s what they do.
That's what I'm asking for -- show me the exploits with flexible subclasses within the playtest materials.
 

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