PlayStation 4 or Xbox One or Wii U?

Vicente

Explorer
Now as to in-game innovation, I'm afraid Vicente's example's don't really compare apples to apples. You can't say "360 games are all the same" when your list is 3 titles from the same series. Of course, GoW 1 is like GoW2. But Gears of War is NOT like FIFA or Crash Bandicoot or Minecraft or Rockband, or Lego Star Wars or Dance Dance Revolution or Kinect Sports.

I am comparing 3 games of the same series of one IP with 3 games of the same series of another IP. I didn't even mix Mario 64/Sunshine/Galaxy with New Super Mario which I consider a different IP (even if both series are platformers). This comment was an answer to the general complain about Nintendo not innovating when iterating over their core IPs, when the rest of the industry in general innovates way less than them.

What I'm talking about is whether there's completely new game play ideas that nobody has done. It gets a little fuzzy when the others copy it, but usually there's a standout (like Minecraft) that everybody else recognizes as "the first"

From this viewpoint, unless the Wii has game innovations that NOBODY else has, what does the Wii offer that I can't get on a 360 or PS3? kind of like the exclusives but in my opinion, more important. You can't get Gears of War on a PS3, but it's an FPS and if you played one, you've sort of played them all. So play Resistance on the PS3 instead.

Up until a few days ago, you could only get a game like Minecraft on the PC and 360. That's an innovative game play that Wii doesn't have (probably still doesn't but I could be wrong).

Is there any truly unique game play on the Wii systems? Which granted, the WiiMote enabled, but now the other consoles have caught back up only to find it was cool idea but not great to actually use.

This type of innovation you speak about is not really tied to a concrete console (and Minecraft was a clone of Infiniminer btw). In general, if you value that a lot, then I would just go with a PC which is the system with the most vibrant indie community (where most of these things happen currently). Xbox360 is quite good there too with XBLIG (there were Minecraft-like games in XBLIG way before the official Minecraft for example, which sold millions). But for next gen (XB1, PS4, WiiU) all three main companies have been declared they are going to be very indie friendly (how much PS4/XB1 are going to be remains to be seen as their current declarations are too vague).

But again, I don't see how this goes against anything that I recommended:

- Get a PC: nearly anything on Xbox One and PS4 will appear on PC (more now than ever that the XB1 and the PS4 are nearly PCs, so I think we are going to see a lot of multiplatform stuff) or has a very similar clone on PC. If you care about experimental stuff, PC is king too.
- Get a WiiU: because you can't get Nintendo games on any other system. And yes, going strictly by genre, they don't have any exclusive genre that doesn't exist anywhere else. But Nintendo in general delivers very high quality design/gameplay.

Regards!
 

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Dragonwriter

First Post
I kind of disagree here. I find that Nintendo innovates more on their core franchises than most companies out there. Or at least I find more innovation on their games than I find in the new CoD, Halo or FIFA (talking about other IPs that get iterated over and over again). Third party support is something they have to work more, but they have some interesting things coming down (Rayman, Bayonetta 2... Not enough though).

I find those series fairly boring, too. I did temporarily forget about Rayman and Bayonetta being pulled up for Nintendo, but as you yourself say they aren't enough. And EA and Ubisoft, basically the two biggest and most-prolific third-party publishers, have effectively stated that the WiiU holds no interest to them. And however well-made the first-party games are, they aren't enough to keep a console and game company afloat in this day and age.

I find hard to say Nintendo hasn't innovated when from my point of view the Wii and the Wiimote were the ones that forced Microsoft and Sony to bring Kinect and Move to live. The DS was another great example of hardware innovation. Probably they haven't found something so successful with the WiiU and 3DS hardware features (a little too early to tell, but looks like it), but honestly, repeating the Wii/DS success was kind of doomed effort.

The Wiimote did push motion control, and it did very well for Nintendo. But it was also gimmicky. There were only a tiny handful of games outside Nintendo's stable that actually did anything worthwhile with it. But as they moved forward to the WiiU, look how poorly it has fared in the market. It's costing Nintendo an insane amount to keep trying to save the thing, as it simply is not moving sales enough. It might be helped by some major first-party announcements, but they simply haven't come. That may change with Gamescom right here and the Tokyo Game Show next month, but it isn't enough right now. And Nintendo needs something right now.
And look how Sony has pulled back on the Move business. Microsoft is pushing Kinect 2.0 with the XBOne, but it hasn't exactly been met with great enthusiasm. Motion control may be considered the future of gaming, but it still receives a lukewarm reception, thanks to the current limitations of the technology.

I find that there are far more gameplay/design differences between Mario 64/Sunshine/Galaxy than FIFA 12/13/14 or Gears of War 1/2/3. Maybe it's just me, but that's how I feel when I play the next Mario/Zelda/Metroid game vs the feeling in other big IPs out there.

I find them all to be sadly alike. Don't get me wrong, they're still excellent games. They're just really cookie-cutter, in my view. Innovation is a hard thing to pull off nowadays, as there is so much out there and so much history -- I get it.
Mario is still fun, but the newer releases have been more like shiny retreads of 64, with some new toys sprinkled in here and there as experiments. Zelda has followed the same structure for years and years -- go through themed dungeons (and there must always be a Water Temple), collect a new item from each in order, use that item to defeat the boss of the dungeon. Metroid has probably seen the most change in recent years. Some good, some ill. Other M was a travesty that should not have happened. But the Prime series was pretty good, cool stuff. But the studio behind Prime (Retro) has since lost several of its major people, and are working on the new Donkey Kong Country Returns games, themselves really a redesign of the DKC games from the SNES era. (Let's also not forget that Nintendo appears to look at Metroid like their red-headed stepchild. Zelda got a huge Anniversary Celebration, but Metroid got nothing for its 25th Anniversary. :p)
Yes, they add a little bit here and there in an attempt to freshen up their games. But to me, it feels like far too little to justify the expense of buying into their consoles now.

At the same time, I'm not enthused about plenty of the sequel releases coming up. I find most of the FPS genre to be stagnant, and I'm not a big multiplayer fan. Most of the innovation I look for is in concept, characters, and storytelling. Nintendo certainly has their long-standing concepts nailed down, but they don't branch out from them much. It seems to me that they are scared to take risks. Their characters are semi-defined... through their history, not through any real exposition. As for storytelling, the only series that really does much of anything with it is Zelda. And that is still stuck in the days of no voice acting, making emotion far harder to convey. They manage it, but they do so in a counter-intuitive manner.

Take a second and look back at BioShock 1. While the action design wasn't a revolution, the characters, setting, and story were a breath of fresh air. You still have the silent protagonist, but the other characters were brought to life through their writing and voice acting. Bioshock Infinite was, action-wise, pretty much "been there, done that." The rift mechanics were a neat addition, but nothing mind blowing. Where Infinite really stood out was the story and characters.
Now for an ongoing series with those yearly releases: Assassin's Creed. Each time, they've tried to add something new to the mix and polish older stuff. In each stage of the Ezio set, new mechanics were added in, some successful and some not. But they were willing to take the risks. Now AC4: Black Flag is taking a very different route compared to its forebears. They're willing to attempt different things, so they have my attention. It may pay off or it may not. But what matters to me is that they are trying something new.

Sequels and series-based games don't have to be so cookie-cutter. The apparent choice of Nintendo to leave things as they are, in my eyes, makes me far less interested in them as a company.

Sorry to the OP for helping send this so off-topic. But hopefully it will be helpful in your decision, anyway.
 

Vicente

Explorer
I find those series fairly boring, too. I did temporarily forget about Rayman and Bayonetta being pulled up for Nintendo, but as you yourself say they aren't enough. And EA and Ubisoft, basically the two biggest and most-prolific third-party publishers, have effectively stated that the WiiU holds no interest to them. And however well-made the first-party games are, they aren't enough to keep a console and game company afloat in this day and age.

If I remember right in recently numbers published by Nintendo their cash reserves were huge. And the 3DS is doing reasonably well, with even some dying franchises doing way better than expected (Fire Emblem for example). I am honestly not worried on their future really, the Wii/DS cycle was too good for them (like the PS2 cycle was too good for Sony for example).

The Wiimote did push motion control, and it did very well for Nintendo. But it was also gimmicky. There were only a tiny handful of games outside Nintendo's stable that actually did anything worthwhile with it. But as they moved forward to the WiiU, look how poorly it has fared in the market. It's costing Nintendo an insane amount to keep trying to save the thing, as it simply is not moving sales enough. It might be helped by some major first-party announcements, but they simply haven't come. That may change with Gamescom right here and the Tokyo Game Show next month, but it isn't enough right now. And Nintendo needs something right now.
And look how Sony has pulled back on the Move business. Microsoft is pushing Kinect 2.0 with the XBOne, but it hasn't exactly been met with great enthusiasm. Motion control may be considered the future of gaming, but it still receives a lukewarm reception, thanks to the current limitations of the technology.

I am of the opinion that the bad performance of the WiiU is not related to it's controller features, but the lack of first-party games and also the goodwill Nintendo burned from core gamers with the Wii. I bought one of those blind, I am not repeating the same with the WiiU, I will wait for games to come before getting it (but I am sure I will be getting it sooner or later, the difference is that instead of day 1 buy it has become a year 1-2 buy).

I don't really understand why Nintendo released the console with so little support from their core IPs. A price cut to $300 would be nice too as the PS4 price is somewhat close.

I find them all to be sadly alike. Don't get me wrong, they're still excellent games. They're just really cookie-cutter, in my view. Innovation is a hard thing to pull off nowadays, as there is so much out there and so much history -- I get it.
Mario is still fun, but the newer releases have been more like shiny retreads of 64, with some new toys sprinkled in here and there as experiments. Zelda has followed the same structure for years and years -- go through themed dungeons (and there must always be a Water Temple), collect a new item from each in order, use that item to defeat the boss of the dungeon. Metroid has probably seen the most change in recent years. Some good, some ill. Other M was a travesty that should not have happened. But the Prime series was pretty good, cool stuff. But the studio behind Prime (Retro) has since lost several of its major people, and are working on the new Donkey Kong Country Returns games, themselves really a redesign of the DKC games from the SNES era. (Let's also not forget that Nintendo appears to look at Metroid like their red-headed stepchild. Zelda got a huge Anniversary Celebration, but Metroid got nothing for its 25th Anniversary. :p)
Yes, they add a little bit here and there in an attempt to freshen up their games. But to me, it feels like far too little to justify the expense of buying into their consoles now.

At the same time, I'm not enthused about plenty of the sequel releases coming up. I find most of the FPS genre to be stagnant, and I'm not a big multiplayer fan. Most of the innovation I look for is in concept, characters, and storytelling. Nintendo certainly has their long-standing concepts nailed down, but they don't branch out from them much. It seems to me that they are scared to take risks. Their characters are semi-defined... through their history, not through any real exposition. As for storytelling, the only series that really does much of anything with it is Zelda. And that is still stuck in the days of no voice acting, making emotion far harder to convey. They manage it, but they do so in a counter-intuitive manner.

Take a second and look back at BioShock 1. While the action design wasn't a revolution, the characters, setting, and story were a breath of fresh air. You still have the silent protagonist, but the other characters were brought to life through their writing and voice acting. Bioshock Infinite was, action-wise, pretty much "been there, done that." The rift mechanics were a neat addition, but nothing mind blowing. Where Infinite really stood out was the story and characters.
Now for an ongoing series with those yearly releases: Assassin's Creed. Each time, they've tried to add something new to the mix and polish older stuff. In each stage of the Ezio set, new mechanics were added in, some successful and some not. But they were willing to take the risks. Now AC4: Black Flag is taking a very different route compared to its forebears. They're willing to attempt different things, so they have my attention. It may pay off or it may not. But what matters to me is that they are trying something new.

Sequels and series-based games don't have to be so cookie-cutter. The apparent choice of Nintendo to leave things as they are, in my eyes, makes me far less interested in them as a company.

Sorry to the OP for helping send this so off-topic. But hopefully it will be helpful in your decision, anyway.

Nothing to say here, I mostly agree with everything you said. I think that the differences between Nintendo games justify the buy for me (and I take also into account that I grew up playing their games) but I can see that not the case with other people :) I honestly wouldn't mind Nintendo exploring more mature graphics/storylines/characters as you say, that's something they are lacking and I agree they don't seem to be inclined to even try it :(

Regards!
 

Janx

Hero
Sequels and series-based games don't have to be so cookie-cutter. The apparent choice of Nintendo to leave things as they are, in my eyes, makes me far less interested in them as a company.

Sorry to the OP for helping send this so off-topic. But hopefully it will be helpful in your decision, anyway.

I think you made my point with very specific knowledge of Wii-lore.

It may be hard to seperate "I really liked these games" from "these games are really just the same game play principles wrapped in new art"

Kind of like how Gin Rummy and Mah Jong are very nearly the same game. The most likely evolved seperately, but they both revolve around collecting sets to complete a hand and go out.

I still don't think Mario 64/Sunshine/Galaxy can be considered a series. Each game is set independently of the other from what wikipedia tells me (unlike Gears of War, Halo or Resistance). Each game isn't intended as an interative improvement (unlike FIFA or Madden football).

They're simply unrelated 3d platformers using the same characters. Because that's what Nintendo does. I wouldn't watch Star Trek 3 without watching the prior 2 movies. I wouldn't play Halo 3 without playing the first two (if I could help it). These Mario games don't hold such story telling or relationship to each other. Each is just an independent game featuring Mario in a type of game (platformer usually).

In this light, I'm not sold on why I should bother with a Wii per Vicente's advice, I think the assumption is that the Nintendo games are best in class (platformer if we stick to Mario). i suspect that is unlikely to be absolutely true. I suspect there are EQUALLY good games of the type Nintendo makes on the other consoles (along with the usual slew of sequential upgrade franchise games).
 

Janx

Hero
Nothing to say here, I mostly agree with everything you said. I think that the differences between Nintendo games justify the buy for me (and I take also into account that I grew up playing their games) but I can see that not the case with other people :) I honestly wouldn't mind Nintendo exploring more mature graphics/storylines/characters as you say, that's something they are lacking and I agree they don't seem to be inclined to even try it :(

Regards!

And that's what I suspected is that you grew up on Nintendo (hey, I had a NES as well).

Keep in mind, the mindset I am espousing is the "Gamer Snob." We think PS3/360 games are better than Nintendo, and for that demographic, we're right.

The people buying playstations, xboxes and PCs for gaming are older (20-40 year old adults) and are looking for excellent graphics, and mature topics. Nintendo stuck to kids and casual gamers. So they kept the price low and that's why the Wii sold like hot-cakes.

We could suggest that the PS/Xbox owners haven't quite graduated to PC gaming (by making the investment to do so), but hopefully you can see that there is a hierarchy in the gaming world and Nintendo is at the "just for kids/newbs/casuals" level.
 

Vicente

Explorer
I still don't think Mario 64/Sunshine/Galaxy can be considered a series. Each game is set independently of the other from what wikipedia tells me (unlike Gears of War, Halo or Resistance). Each game isn't intended as an interative improvement (unlike FIFA or Madden football).

They're simply unrelated 3d platformers using the same characters. Because that's what Nintendo does. I wouldn't watch Star Trek 3 without watching the prior 2 movies. I wouldn't play Halo 3 without playing the first two (if I could help it). These Mario games don't hold such story telling or relationship to each other. Each is just an independent game featuring Mario in a type of game (platformer usually).

That's the way Nintendo iterates over their franchises, and that is why their iterations from my point of view are more innovative than what most of the rest of the game industry does. I don't think a linked narrative is needed to mark a game as a sequel to another (nor a numeral to call it explicitly as a sequel).

In this light, I'm not sold on why I should bother with a Wii per Vicente's advice, I think the assumption is that the Nintendo games are best in class (platformer if we stick to Mario). i suspect that is unlikely to be absolutely true. I suspect there are EQUALLY good games of the type Nintendo makes on the other consoles (along with the usual slew of sequential upgrade franchise games).

Quality is very subjective in general, but feel free to check Metacritic scores of Nintendo games. Most of the time they are pretty much the top of their class on what they do :) Nintendo in general always delivers very high quality and has for a long time. The best of the best? Not always of course, but you can count they will be in general fighting for that.

Regards!
 

Janx

Hero
Quality is very subjective in general, but feel free to check Metacritic scores of Nintendo games. Most of the time they are pretty much the top of their class on what they do :) Nintendo in general always delivers very high quality and has for a long time. The best of the best? Not always of course, but you can count they will be in general fighting for that.

Regards!

Probably the challenge to that is Nintendo's Seal of Quality that got tarnished by all the utter crap they let onto their consoles in each generation. You might be running into all the "good things" about Nintendo article. All I see are the "what utter crap" articles. There are youtubers who make a living off of making fun of bad Nintendo games.

I think the topic is tricky from you, because you advocate 2 systems, PC and Wii. Lock that down to one.

Which would you get? I predict you'd pick PC.

Now scratch out PC because the console gamers are not likely to cross that threshold. Sony, MS, Nintendo.

The die hard gamers won't be choosing Nintendo.

As a second machine, it's a dabbling investment. As a primary machine, it's not even in the consideration for most gamers.

Now popular opinion may vary by market (USA vs. other places?). But I don't see or hear other gamers talking about the Wii as a serious machine. It's more like a Honda Civic at the gathering of sports car enthusiasts where the cheapest car is a stock $90K Corvette.

I have no doubt there's somebody who only owns a Wii and thinks he's a serious gamer. but he's got no cred because his ride isn't in the big leagues.
 

Other than the WiiMote, I'm not sure of what [hardware] innovation Nintendo has brought to the table lately.

Off-TV Play.

Near field communication.

Integrated universal IR remote.

Integrated touchscreen: first in mobile (DS) and console (Wii U).

Glasses-free 3D (3DS).

Wii Speak.

Wii Balance Board.

Wii/DS inter-connectivity.


Probably the challenge to that is Nintendo's Seal of Quality that got tarnished

Drifting topic here, but the Seal of Quality was designed to note that the game was a licensed title, since the original NES had no lockout hardware of any type. It was the first version of modern console software development licensing, and had nothing to doe with "quality".
 
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Vicente

Explorer
I think the topic is tricky from you, because you advocate 2 systems, PC and Wii. Lock that down to one.

Which would you get? I predict you'd pick PC.

Now scratch out PC because the console gamers are not likely to cross that threshold. Sony, MS, Nintendo.

The die hard gamers won't be choosing Nintendo.

As a second machine, it's a dabbling investment. As a primary machine, it's not even in the consideration for most gamers.

Now popular opinion may vary by market (USA vs. other places?). But I don't see or hear other gamers talking about the Wii as a serious machine. It's more like a Honda Civic at the gathering of sports car enthusiasts where the cheapest car is a stock $90K Corvette.

I have no doubt there's somebody who only owns a Wii and thinks he's a serious gamer. but he's got no cred because his ride isn't in the big leagues.

Yes, you are correct: if I only had to recommend one system I would recommend a PC. If you do not want a PC, then my recommendation right now is to wait and not buy anything. Sony and MS haven't even released their consoles and a lot of their promises may hold or not, and WiiU has a weak catalog of games at the moment. I would wait at least 6-12 more months before making a decision on any of the three.

Regards!
 

Janx

Hero
Off-TV Play.

Near field communication.

Integrated universal IR remote.

Integrated touchscreen: first in mobile (DS) and console (Wii U).

Glasses-free 3D (3DS).

Wii Speak.

Wii Balance Board.

Wii/DS inter-connectivity.




Drifting topic here, but the Seal of Quality was designed to note that the game was a licensed title, since the original NES had no lockout hardware of any type. It was the first version of modern console software development licensing, and had nothing to doe with "quality".

Good list of Nintendo innovations for the discussion.

On the quality thing: the problem is that Nintendo is the laughing stock of consoles in the used game business. They have a reputation for allowing more crappy games on their platform than anybody else. Granted, everybody in the know just avoids the crap, but it lowers the reputation of a box, and the "what to buy" advice is to steer away from Nintendo unless you have kids, just to reduce the chances of a bad purchase.
 

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