D&D (2024) Playtest 6: Paladin ... Divine Smite is a Spell now

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

This post is relevant for the Paladin class too. ...

These new "class spells" no longer participate in the balancing mechanism of spell slot levels. They are intentionally broken.

Yep and I don’t like it.

 

[Maxperson]

Interesting, the bonus action cost of the ability is minimal. So changing Divine Smite to a bonus action should be equally minimal.

I like your attempt at spinning the thunder, it doesn't work, because no one is going to have a single 1st level spell cause a mass surrender, but it was funny to read.

I play in and run more realistic games than a lot of folks.

I suppose all of your NPCs fight to the death, too.

And the point 4 is such a massive downside that the only thing you can think of is having it not be a factor. Because I asked what balanced this, and your response was the balance was achieved by having an option that did not have this negative. Nothing in the ability itself balances this, only the option to use a different ability to avoid this negative.

So point 4 is such a downside that we should make it worse by making normal smite subject to it? Nice suggestion there.

It's not a factor because normal smites exist for those instances where it shows up.

If you take out the bolded part, the sword is still buried in the enemy. In which case, it's kind of obvious what they are attempting to cast. Not many misty steps are channeled through a sword.

The sword is never buried in the enemy unless he's already at 0, in which case there's no point in smiting at all. Read the hit point stuff in the PHB.

There is no reason they can't recognize it in time for the counter.

Other than RAW anyway.

After all, they would recognize shield being cast as a reaction to a weapon being swung.

Not until after it happened.

So the enemy can't tell a paladin from a religious fighter because you say so.

Which is the paladin and which is the religious fighter?

Because you say there is no possible way for them to know an aura is present. Because you say that the Radiant Strikes are not visible. Because you say it can't be done.

Show in RAW where it says those things are visible and/or detectable by someone nearby? Because if you can't, then they aren't by RAW. On what is written is RAW.

Well, I say it can.

You can say that the moon is made of green cheese, too.

And, again, lets say you are right. Let's say that the mage has no clue what you are and what you are doing, just MAGIC! like a dog orienting on a squirrel, and they blast you with a 7th level counterspell because you might possibly have been trying to cast Divine Word and that scared them. Yes, you lose a 1st or 2nd level spell slot. They lost a 7th. Explain to me how this is a bad trade?

Or maybe it's a 3rd, or maybe that's not the point. If you want to be made useless for a fight in order to take away enemy resources, that's your decision. I prefer to be useful AND take up resources.

 

[Stalker0]

So just checking in..... any minds changed yet from this very long and tedious debate?

 

[Nadan]

So just checking in..... any minds changed yet from this very long and tedious debate?

Probably no, as usual.

 

[mellored]

So just checking in..... any minds changed yet from this very long and tedious debate?

I think everyone but maxperson is fine with it being a spell.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I play in and run more realistic games than a lot of folks.

I suppose all of your NPCs fight to the death, too.

Funny how you don't address the bonus action claim, only turn around and attack people for being "unrealistic" for not letting a 1st level spell act as a mass fear.

So, are you fine with Divine Smite being a bonus action now, since that is a "minimal cost"

So point 4 is such a downside that we should make it worse by making normal smite subject to it? Nice suggestion there.

It's not a factor because normal smites exist for those instances where it shows up.

Balance is things being equal. If the ability to be counterspelled is such a terrible burden that no spell smite will ever be used when it is a possibility.... then they need to be STRONGER than Divine Smite which does not have that malus.

They aren't. So it makes since to instead bring Divine Smite into parity.

The sword is never buried in the enemy unless he's already at 0, in which case there's no point in smiting at all. Read the hit point stuff in the PHB.

So, not addressing the point, just going to try and smokescreen with a debate about what hitpoints really mean? Are we good to ignore your complaints on timing then since Divine Smite never hits an enemy?

Other than RAW anyway.

Not until after it happened.

Tell me where in RAW it states you cannot recognize the trigger for a spell. Because I can't find it.

Which is the paladin and which is the religious fighter?

View attachment 289519View attachment 289520

The one exuding a magical aura. Unfortunately, drawings can't exude magical auras, so you can't tell from them. But you can tell if you stand near someone with a magical aura. It is kind of like body odor. Pictures don't catch body odor, because it isn't visual information.

Show in RAW where it says those things are visible and/or detectable by someone nearby? Because if you can't, then they aren't by RAW. On what is written is RAW.

You don't need them to spell it out, just like they have never said that climbing requires a free hand. Every ally of a paladin knows exactly where the borders of their aura are, with extreme precision. For this to be true, the aura must be detectable. Unless you want to tell me that you never tell your players when they are within a paladin's aura?

You can say that the moon is made of green cheese, too.

I could, but I don't. Instead I say that the paladin's magical abilities are detectable by people in a magical world.

Or maybe it's a 3rd, or maybe that's not the point. If you want to be made useless for a fight in order to take away enemy resources, that's your decision. I prefer to be useful AND take up resources.

Paladins are not made useless by not being able to complete a single smite. Heck, unlike the wizard, druid, bard, sorcerer, warlock (ect. ect. ect) the paladin getting their smite countered STILL DID SOMETHING, meanwhile a wizard whose firebolt cantrip got countered did nothing at all.

 

[Maxperson]

Funny how you don't address the bonus action claim, only turn around and attack people for being "unrealistic" for not letting a 1st level spell act as a mass fear.

I already addressed it in the post you quoted. There's nothing more to say.

So, are you fine with Divine Smite being a bonus action now, since that is a "minimal cost"

I've already said as much. Or just make it once per round. So long as it's not a spell.

Balance is things being equal. If the ability to be counterspelled is such a terrible burden that no spell smite will ever be used when it is a possibility.... then they need to be STRONGER than Divine Smite which does not have that malus.

We simply disagree here. The rider is sufficient in my opinion.

Tell me where in RAW it states you cannot recognize the trigger for a spell. Because I can't find it.

Correct and since you can't find it saying that it is recognized, it isn't. Only what is written can ever be RAW. So in order for there to be some visible or other sensory aspect, you have to show it written into the ability somewhere. Can you do that?

Every ally of a paladin knows exactly where the borders of their aura are, with extreme precision. For this to be true, the aura must be detectable. Unless you want to tell me that you never tell your players when they are within a paladin's aura?

This is absolutely false. After the paladin tells them that they have to be within 10 feet they can tell simply by their distance to the paladin. No sensory detection need be present at all.

I could, but I don't. Instead I say that the paladin's magical abilities are detectable by people in a magical world.

And that's a fine homebrew rule which I would not object to if I were in your game. It is not, however, RAW. By RAW no such detectability is present.

Paladins are not made useless by not being able to complete a single smite. Heck, unlike the wizard, druid, bard, sorcerer, warlock (ect. ect. ect) the paladin getting their smite countered STILL DID SOMETHING, meanwhile a wizard whose firebolt cantrip got countered did nothing at all.

I've already responded to that apples and oranges comparison. The paladin is affected differently from spellcasters.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I already addressed it in the post you quoted. There's nothing more to say.

I've already said as much. Or just make it once per round. So long as it's not a spell.

Cool, so your only problem with the new Divine Smite is that it can be countered, silenced, or anti-magicked. And your major reason for wanting that... is so you have an option for smiting that can't be countered, silenced, or anti-magicked... That reads to me like you fully recognize the power imbalance, but want it because it is better for you that it exists.

We simply disagree here. The rider is sufficient in my opinion.

Except, when the threat of counter-spell is active... you abandon it completely. So, obviously it isn't worth it.

Correct and since you can't find it saying that it is recognized, it isn't. Only what is written can ever be RAW. So in order for there to be some visible or other sensory aspect, you have to show it written into the ability somewhere. Can you do that?

So, no raw states whether or not you can recognize a trigger. Therefore you declare they can't, with no support of RAW, because... why? Obviously the mage has to be able to recognize a trigger HAPPENED or they couldn't use their reaction to identify the spell. So it makes sense they can tell what the trigger WAS that started the process.

This is absolutely false. After the paladin tells them that they have to be within 10 feet they can tell simply by their distance to the paladin. No sensory detection need be present at all.

When does every single paladin tell every single ally they will ever have this information? Because it isn't just party members that can be assumed to have been told off-screen, I've also seen NPCs who fight with the party just know where the aura is. Do we assume the paladin just constantly yells about their invisible undetectable aura at the start of every turn, in case they have an ally who will show up?

I've already responded to that apples and oranges comparison. The paladin is affected differently from spellcasters.

By "differently" you mean "to a lesser extent"

Let's be honest, this entire thing is you being upset that you might get counter-spelled when you crit-smite. That's it. That's the whole enchilada. Because you don't care about the bonus action, all you care about is that someone, somewhere, might counterspell your paladin and you are no longer immune to that.

 

[Maxperson]

Cool, so your only problem with the new Divine Smite is that it can be countered, silenced, or anti-magicked. And your major reason for wanting that... is so you have an option for smiting that can't be countered, silenced, or anti-magicked... That reads to me like you fully recognize the power imbalance, but want it because it is better for you that it exists.

My problem with it is that it's a spell. The flaws that go with spells are just a crappy coincidence.

Except, when the threat of counter-spell is active... you abandon it completely. So, obviously it isn't worth it.

Sure. Take that pitchfork and go dig a well. Let me know how using the wrong tool for a specific job goes for you.

So, no raw states whether or not you can recognize a trigger. Therefore you declare they can't, with no support of RAW, because... why?

Once again, is ONLY what it WRITTEN. It quite literally cannot include anything else. I mean, c'mon man, it's Rules as Written. Not Rules as I Like to Interpret Them. Not Rules as Inferred. Not Rules as Made Up By Me. It's Rules as WRITTEN.

When does every single paladin tell every single ally they will ever have this information? Because it isn't just party members that can be assumed to have been told off-screen, I've also seen NPCs who fight with the party just know where the aura is. Do we assume the paladin just constantly yells about their invisible undetectable aura at the start of every turn, in case they have an ally who will show up?

Bad play is bad. If NPCs are acting without knowledge, that's the DM's fault.

By "differently" you mean "to a lesser extent"

No.

 

[Clint_L]

Okay, let's say you get counterspelled when you crit-smite. If it's a level 1 smite, they've used a counterspell to stop 18 points of damage. Bleh. Bad trade...for them. At level 2...okay, 27 points of damage for a counterspell is not the worst trade-off, though generally you want to keep it on reserve for save or suck situations. But if you are low on health, sure. You might use it here. At level 3 or higher, it is a solid use of counterspell in a lot of situations.

So the worry is that smite might get counterspelled in all those situations where:

1. You are facing an enemy that has counterspell
2. The enemy has their reaction available
3. You have rolled a critical (5% of your attacks rolls)
4. You have chosen to use smite at level 2 or higher on top of the critical
5. You do not have a party member such as a wizard who could cast a far more threatening spell

And that set of circumstances comes up...how often in campaigns? So really, all this bother is because one person is worried about the off-off-off chance that one day there may be a circumstance where an opponent would actually use a counterspell on smite. Is that about the gist of it?