D&D (2024) Playtest 6: Paladin ... Divine Smite is a Spell now

[Nadan]

You're playing a wizard. There's an antagonist dressed in a magic robe holding a tome. How does the DM indicate that your opponent is casting a spell to let you know that you could counterspell? What is the cue that your wizard picks up that a spell is going to be cast?

I mean, isn't that what spell components V, S, M are for?

 

[Maxperson]

Sure.

Every battle has a zone of silence where a bunch of melee enemies stand in, and a bunch of wizards who know counter spell behind them.

And Paladins can't do anything but walk into it the zone.

Can't throw javelins at enemies who are standing still.
Can't wait for the enemy to move out.
Can't go around.
Or anything else...

Why do you keep Strawmanning my argument? You know very well that I never said that.

 

[Maxperson]

As I mentioned above, in the case of Smite, an observer doesn’t need to identify it to be fairly certain of what it is when cast, because of who is casting it, and when it’s cast. And again, unless the counterspeller is the target of the smite, it’s probably not worth expending a Counterspell on. And perhaps not even then.

So while a Smite spell can be counterspelled, it’s less likely to be than an unidentified spell from a wizard or cleric opponent.

Paladins don't run around with a giant P on their spandex suits. They aren't going to know whether its a paladin, eldritch knight, cleric, wizard with armor proficiency or other combatants. They might figure it out eventually, but it's not going to be automatic or even necessarily in the first few rounds of combat.

 

[Maxperson]

I'm not saying to identify it. I'm asking you how your character knows, inside the narrative, that a spell is being cast.

You're playing a wizard. There's an antagonist dressed in a magic robe holding a tome. How does the DM indicate that your opponent is casting a spell to let you know that you could counterspell? What is the cue that your wizard picks up that a spell is going to be cast?

Typically if the individual is clearly seen I just get told that NPC X is casting a spell. If that NPC is behind a few people it might not be clear in enough time so perception checks are called for and if successful I get told that NPC X is casting the spell.

 

[Maxperson]

Wrong. There was a lot wrong with it. The Smite spells took an action that Divine Smite didn't. They were affected by counterspell, silence, and anti-magic. And they did less damage. They were so much weaker than Divine Smite that they were essentially never used by the majority of tables.

They weren't used because you had to cast them before attacking, which made them useless a good amount of the time. If they had been castable after a hit, they'd have seen a lot of use. The bonus effects would have seen to that.

 

[Maxperson]

Whether or not it is RAW, you still know and saw what happened before, and can apply logic. If you see someone get hit with a sword, and then they begin casting a spell in reaction to being hit, it likely isn't Raise Dead, because that spell isn't a reaction.

Similarly, an armored warrior casting a spell AFTER hitting with a weapon is likely not casting lightning bolt, since they hit with a weapon and lightning bolt doesn't work that way.

Could be casting Misty Step. Nothing like running up, swinging twice and then teleporting out of attack range, behind rough ground or next to some companions. Could be Compelled Duel. Could be Divine Word or Divine Favor. Could be Ensnaring Strike. Could be Expeditious Retreat. Could be Grasping Vine. Could be lots of different things. The smites are actually in the minority of possible bonus action spells.

 

[Mephista]

Typically if the individual is clearly seen I just get told that NPC X is casting a spell. If that NPC is behind a few people it might not be clear in enough time so perception checks are called for and if successful I get told that NPC X is casting the spell.

Okay. Thank you for the response!

 

[Sir Brennen]

Paladins don't run around with a giant P on their spandex suits. They aren't going to know whether its a paladin, eldritch knight, cleric, wizard with armor proficiency or other combatants. They might figure it out eventually, but it's not going to be automatic or even necessarily in the first few rounds of combat.

I know you're juggling a lot of responses here, so I'll describe the scenario again. (Also, paladins usually do have a giant 'P' on their outfits, in the form of a holy symbol or other identifying religious markings. Maybe a cleric, maybe a paladin, but it certainly narrows the options down. )

BBEG with counterspell sees a warrior (again, likely marked as a religious class of some type) make a melee attack and immediately start to cast a spell. A high INT BBEG knows there are very few, if any, spells that can be cast this way, so it's a safe bet on their part that the warrior-type is casting a divine smite spell. In the grand scheme of things, that's not going to be a priority to use counterspell on, especially if the enemy party has at least one (possibly more) spellcasters who could cast something targeting the BBEG at range, and/or the BBEG's party with an area effect. That 1st level divine smite spell simply won't be worth the effort, most of the time, especially if the BBEG isn't the immediate target.

Remember, counterspell is a limited resource in terms of spell slots and actions within a round. So, the BBEG can only counter one spell each round, and only a few times during the entire battle (especially if he wants to use any of his other spells). They have to choose strategically between all the spellcasters in the enemy party, which again, is going to put the spell-casting warrior lower on the list.

 

[Sir Brennen]

Could be casting Misty Step. Nothing like running up, swinging twice and then teleporting out of attack range, behind rough ground or next to some companions. Could be Compelled Duel. Could be Divine Word or Divine Favor. Could be Ensnaring Strike. Could be Expeditious Retreat. Could be Grasping Vine. Could be lots of different things. The smites are actually in the minority of possible bonus action spells.

And almost none of these are worth wasting a counterspell on.

 

[Maxperson]

I know you're juggling a lot of responses here, so I'll describe the scenario again. (Also, paladins usually do have a giant 'P' on their outfits, in the form of a holy symbol or other identifying religious markings. Maybe a cleric, maybe a paladin, but it certainly narrows the options down. )

Maybe it's my group, but we quite often have religious fighters, wizards, etc. that wear holy symbols like members of real world faiths wear crosses and other religious symbols, but aren't clergy. Same with NPCs.

BBEG with counterspell sees a warrior (again, likely marked as a religious class of some type) make a melee attack and immediately start to cast a spell. A high INT BBEG knows there are very few, if any, spells that can be cast this way, so it's a safe bet on their part that the warrior-type is casting a divine smite spell. In the grand scheme of things, that's not going to be a priority to use counterspell on, especially if the enemy party has at least one (possibly more) spellcasters who could cast something targeting the BBEG at range, and/or the BBEG's party with an area effect. That 1st level divine smite spell simply won't be worth the effort, most of the time, especially if the BBEG isn't the immediate target.

As I pointed out in another post, there are a LOT of decent/good bonus action spells that work well after an attack. The smites are actually in the minority of possible spells of that type.

Remember, counterspell is a limited resource in terms of spell slots and actions within a round. So, the BBEG can only counter one spell at a time, and only a few times during the entire battle (especially if he wants to use any of his other spells). They have to choose strategically between all the spellcasters in the enemy party, which again, is going to put the spell-casting warrior lower on the list.

He may or may not know the party composition, though. And many NPCs with counterspell are not going to be BBEGs who have a history with the group.