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Playtest 6: Spells
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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9065480" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>Except nothing in 5e says that the Ethereal plane is made of Ether, or that it is the fifth element. It is not part of the elemental planes at all, actually. </p><p></p><p>Again, I'm not saying you are wrong for making this connection, this is one possible interpretation for the Ethereal plane. What I am saying is that you are ADDING this information, and then making determinations based off your additions. And this will create disconnects with other people's ideas. </p><p></p><p>For example, I've started conceiving of the Ethereal as the Dream Plane, because otherwise it is too empty and pointless, just being a place you can go to go places that you could otherwise go to directly.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Why can I not flavor the fly spell as spectral wings or channeling the winds? I actually literally did that with my storm sorcerer, his flight spell was wind manipulation. This is the sort of thing that I am talking about when I mention that making these things too specific can be a problem. It is better to be more generic and more flexible, to allow people to use the mechanics to tell the story they want to tell.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Very likely, siloing healing might be the most effective choice. It may lead to a desire to split things even more generically than the current spell schools, which might be useful.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I doubt it. I've played other games with more defined spell schools... and I've still looked for specific effects and names, rather than broad schools. </p><p></p><p>About the only three that ever seem to be truly useful school names are "Necromancy" (Death and Undeath), "Illusion", and "Enchantment" (mind powers and charms). Everything else is generally just added to the back end.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I disagree. And lets take a simple example. </p><p></p><p>I'm building a pyromancer. Looking for "evocation" gives me ice spells, lightning spells, acid spells... I don't need any of those. So what I actually do is look at the spell names, to find things like Flaming Sphere (conjuration), Produce Flame (Conjuration), Heat Metal (Transmutation) </p><p></p><p>And if I want to wrap my character in flames and fly like the human torch, again, looking at evocation spells doesn't help me, that spell isn't there. I need a spell that gives a flight speed, and just looking for "fly" or "flight" is easier than figuring out that flight is gravity manipulation and looking for the gravity school of magic, if it even exists. </p><p></p><p>Now, that isn't to say that divisions aren't useful. I agree they can be, but it depends on the situation. When I'm dealing with new players, I don't ask them if they want a conjuration or an evocation spell. I ask if they want an offensive, defensive, healing or utility spell. Then I'll say things like "this spell gives a buff to your allies, and this one summons a monster to fight for you, which sounds more like what you want?" Because that is the first step. The only reason spell schools CAN be useful is things like knowing most evocation spells deal damage, so that's where to look for damage spells. But then you may miss damage spells that are not evocation, but fit the style you want better.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Right, so in 5e Ether doesn't exist. You keep trying to organize things based on aspects that do not exist in the game.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But the spell isn't going to come. They have no reason to make a second invisibility spell. There is no need for it. And yes, Phantasmal Force could be argued to be enchantment, it is currently illusion. It could fit in both places, and there isn't a solid reason to put it in one and not the other.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Right, but you aren't doing that. You are enforcing a cosmology into the divisions, and then expecting people to alter the divisions to reshape the cosmology. Which can be fine for homebrew, but as a written ruleset? That is very difficult. And yes, to a degree, DnD has already done that. But that also brings the added challenge of you attempting to ALTER the established cosmology of DnD. </p><p></p><p>Which again, for homebrew is fine. But for a rewrite of DnD would be much harder.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And yet every fey creature in the game is physical and can be touched, in or out of the feywild. Additionally, while Ghosts and Wraiths are immaterial, the skeletons, zombies, Sorrowsworn and Nightwalkers of the Shadowfell are equally solid and physical. </p><p></p><p>You are assuming they are spirit worlds, but they are no more spirit worlds than any other planar location. Personally, I think the Material Plane is a bad name. I usually call it The Mortal World.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Only if you insist they do. Most spells have nothing to do with the cosmology.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 9065480, member: 6801228"] Except nothing in 5e says that the Ethereal plane is made of Ether, or that it is the fifth element. It is not part of the elemental planes at all, actually. Again, I'm not saying you are wrong for making this connection, this is one possible interpretation for the Ethereal plane. What I am saying is that you are ADDING this information, and then making determinations based off your additions. And this will create disconnects with other people's ideas. For example, I've started conceiving of the Ethereal as the Dream Plane, because otherwise it is too empty and pointless, just being a place you can go to go places that you could otherwise go to directly. Why can I not flavor the fly spell as spectral wings or channeling the winds? I actually literally did that with my storm sorcerer, his flight spell was wind manipulation. This is the sort of thing that I am talking about when I mention that making these things too specific can be a problem. It is better to be more generic and more flexible, to allow people to use the mechanics to tell the story they want to tell. Very likely, siloing healing might be the most effective choice. It may lead to a desire to split things even more generically than the current spell schools, which might be useful. I doubt it. I've played other games with more defined spell schools... and I've still looked for specific effects and names, rather than broad schools. About the only three that ever seem to be truly useful school names are "Necromancy" (Death and Undeath), "Illusion", and "Enchantment" (mind powers and charms). Everything else is generally just added to the back end. I disagree. And lets take a simple example. I'm building a pyromancer. Looking for "evocation" gives me ice spells, lightning spells, acid spells... I don't need any of those. So what I actually do is look at the spell names, to find things like Flaming Sphere (conjuration), Produce Flame (Conjuration), Heat Metal (Transmutation) And if I want to wrap my character in flames and fly like the human torch, again, looking at evocation spells doesn't help me, that spell isn't there. I need a spell that gives a flight speed, and just looking for "fly" or "flight" is easier than figuring out that flight is gravity manipulation and looking for the gravity school of magic, if it even exists. Now, that isn't to say that divisions aren't useful. I agree they can be, but it depends on the situation. When I'm dealing with new players, I don't ask them if they want a conjuration or an evocation spell. I ask if they want an offensive, defensive, healing or utility spell. Then I'll say things like "this spell gives a buff to your allies, and this one summons a monster to fight for you, which sounds more like what you want?" Because that is the first step. The only reason spell schools CAN be useful is things like knowing most evocation spells deal damage, so that's where to look for damage spells. But then you may miss damage spells that are not evocation, but fit the style you want better. Right, so in 5e Ether doesn't exist. You keep trying to organize things based on aspects that do not exist in the game. But the spell isn't going to come. They have no reason to make a second invisibility spell. There is no need for it. And yes, Phantasmal Force could be argued to be enchantment, it is currently illusion. It could fit in both places, and there isn't a solid reason to put it in one and not the other. Right, but you aren't doing that. You are enforcing a cosmology into the divisions, and then expecting people to alter the divisions to reshape the cosmology. Which can be fine for homebrew, but as a written ruleset? That is very difficult. And yes, to a degree, DnD has already done that. But that also brings the added challenge of you attempting to ALTER the established cosmology of DnD. Which again, for homebrew is fine. But for a rewrite of DnD would be much harder. And yet every fey creature in the game is physical and can be touched, in or out of the feywild. Additionally, while Ghosts and Wraiths are immaterial, the skeletons, zombies, Sorrowsworn and Nightwalkers of the Shadowfell are equally solid and physical. You are assuming they are spirit worlds, but they are no more spirit worlds than any other planar location. Personally, I think the Material Plane is a bad name. I usually call it The Mortal World. Only if you insist they do. Most spells have nothing to do with the cosmology. [/QUOTE]
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