Playtest report: Hanging on a fence

[HeinorNY]

I think his main point was that when a PC falls to negative HPs, nobody, DM included, can predict whether he's just momentarily unconscious or dying. The fact is, in 4E you just become "unable to fight" and fall prone, but the DM cannot describe the effects of the last blow or the PC's condition in any way until those "recovery rolls" are done with. For example, the effect would be laughable if you described how a blow leaves a character with "his guts spilling out", but he rolls a natural 20 on his next rounds recovery roll ("Guys, I'm just fine! A bit bloodied, but no lasting wounds!"). Especially as he only needs to rest for 6 hours to get to "full health" -- quite a feat if he's innards were hanging out.

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=4161974&postcount=291

 

[srn]

Spontaneous role playing requires a bit of comfort with the rules, I think. Maybe you were all just focused on figuring out abilities, combat rules, etc.

This.

First game I DMed of 4E had no RP at all - just combat. It _was_ tiring. Lots of looking up rules and re-reading monster abilities.

By the third time, I wasn't having any trouble with the rules, people were RPing happening pretty consistently. I was a little disappointed with my first couple of games - but then I thought back to my first years of Basic/Expert/1E games and realised that I'd made the journey it took me years to make back then in three games.

Everyone (including the DM) being unfamiliar with the rules slows everything down and makes it a board game. Once that's passed it can become an RPG.

 

[Gundark]

I think a lot of the focus has been on 4e combat because elements of 3e combat is one of the things they were looking to fix.

People already know D&D is a RPG. People who play D&D will have different levels of roleplay in their games. One of the selling features of 4e is how well it plays mechanically, thus why alot of the demos have been comabt focused.

 

[Mostlyjoe]

I can't stop laughing. I get it now. I get why people are having a hard time getting 4th Edition. It's not the SRPG style combat system. GURPS/Mechwarrior and many many others already have that. It's not the skill challenge system. Go play Spirit of the Century or Wushu.

No. It's the disconnect of immersion to memory. In short we have very specific ideas of what D&D is and specific roleplaying memories associated with that. ie. Even though 3rd Edition changed many-many things about the core mechanic it still held onto the prescribed conventions of Cleric = Healing, the 90 minute work day, and the wonky power creeps.

No, it's the challenge connecting our D&D memories to something so different that it breaks the 4th wall of our memories diorama of what we want to play. It introduces some very game saving changes but creates a 'uncanny valley' effect of play expectations to actuals. Not unlike almost photo realistic CGI.

Oh, how I love 4th Edition now. They did enough. They changed enough to step past the original conventions of D&D while still paying homage to the old roots of it's creation. As an early adopter of many other systems 4th is something new to Roleplaying. There is nothing really stopping you from enjoying the game...but just like you had to suspend your disbelief before when playing as a kid, old players will have to come to terms with the changes and learn the game anew. And this if anything is evolution of a game.

 

[Wolfspider]

Oh, how I love 4th Edition now. They did enough. They changed enough to step past the original conventions of D&D while still paying homage to the old roots of it's creation.

So where did you snag your copies of the PHB, DMG, and MM early? Inquiring minds want to know.

Sarcasm aside, I'm glad you're excited, but it's still a bit premature to talk about what "they" have or haven't done in D&D 4e.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

Failed the roll to avoid SAN loss.

I think his main point was that when a PC falls to negative HPs, nobody, DM included, can predict whether he's just momentarily unconscious or dying. The fact is, in 4E you just become "unable to fight" and fall prone, but the DM cannot describe the effects of the last blow or the PC's condition in any way until those "recovery rolls" are done with. For example, the effect would be laughable if you described how a blow leaves a character with "his guts spilling out", but he rolls a natural 20 on his next round's recovery roll ("Guys, I'm just fine! A bit bloodied, but no lasting wounds!"). Especially as he only needs to rest for 6 hours to get to "full health" -- quite a feat if he's innards were hanging out.

This has absolutely nothing to do with what has been revealed about 4E.

For the guaranteed-not-last-time, the abstract hit point system does not mean that DMs cannot describe the physical damage of a character. DMs are able to make whatever descriptions they want about the physical state of a character. and they can stick with it. "Full HPs" does not equal "Full Health".

I am constantly amazed at the number of role-playing gamers who cannot make this small realization.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Mostlyjoe


Oh, how I love 4th Edition now. They did enough. They changed enough to step past the original conventions of D&D while still paying homage to the old roots of it's creation.

I'm still more ambivalent about the 4Ed update than any other revision of any other RPG I've seen (heck, I should probably put that in my sig for a few months), but I won't make my final decision until well after my preordered Core 3 arrives.

One of the things that bugs me the most, though, is my concern that D&D will lose its unique feel and/or will resemble an amalgam of some of the other 60+ RPGs I still own.

 

[CleverNickName]

...but just like you had to suspend your disbelief before when playing as a kid, old players will have to come to terms with the changes and learn the game anew.

Or not. (shrug) There is always Pathfinder, or True20, or 3.5 or any of the previous versions of this wonderful game that span the last 20+ years. The only people who have to come to terms with the changes and learn the game anew, are the ones who want to play 4E.

 

[Mostlyjoe]

Sarcasm aside, I'm glad you're excited, but it's still a bit premature to talk about what "they" have or haven't done in D&D 4e.

Okay. I don't have the book. But think of it in terms of purely the play tests. Obviously not everything has changed. It didn't need too. Pacing, general d20 mechanics, etc are just fine as is. Skill Challenges are just an new application of SWSE skill systems (A good one at that.), and the core stat modifiers and such are just shifting as to where the +2 on up happens.

It's the application of all the changes. I can say with some seriousness that we have a good idea of Heroic tier play for the first 3 or so levels. I'll admit I wish I could sink my teeth into a Paragon Path Power or some Epic Destiny Powers. But, as a whole I'm getting a clearer idea of where they went with the system from what I've seen.

It shall be interesting to see where I'm wrong. But that's half the fun! And that's where I guess the playtests/demo players are having their issues. They have a solid idea of where play at those levels should be like and they haven't adapted to the new conception yet. It will happen, but it's going to be a hoot watching the players adapt and learn. I just think it's going to be like 3rd Edition, only more so. They changed more than before and frankly I like it.

 

[Mostlyjoe]

Or not. (shrug) There is always Pathfinder, or True20, or 3.5 or any of the previous versions of this wonderful game that span the last 20+ years. The only people who have to come to terms with the changes and learn the game anew, are the ones who want to play 4E.

Or Rule Cyclopedia, or the various fan works for each previous editions and your right and it will happen. But I'm quite happily in that group of players who are tired of 3rd, 3.5 on down and 4th seems to finally have stepped off the old path enough to make me want to try it. It might not be my one true game . No, GURPS still has my love of old for that. But this is seems to be a mighty fun new take on old concepts.