Please Help: Archer Build

[Malachei]

I am creating an elf archer build to enter a running campaign at 8th level. We're playing a mix of 3.X and Pathfinder. Skills are PF, many Feats, as well (as is the feat progression), as well as most classes.

The character is an elven archer, protecting the elven homelands as an elite sniper and scout. I am considering two builds for the archer:

(a) Swift Hunter (Ranger / Scout)

(b) Ranger plus X (more Spellcasting without losing archer ability?)

The Swift Hunters Handbook offers a lot of information. I'm not sure how these complement with Pathfinder Ranger, especially with regards to feats that depends on movement or full-round attacks (Pathfinder's Deadly Aim, Vital Strike, Manyshot, Rapid Shot with the Scout's abilities and requirements).

I like a lot the Scout brings to the build, but I don't like about the Scout (flavor-wise) is that you have to move all the time.
Can you please offer your advice on how to create the build? What would your Archer build look like? Are there any issues combining the Pathfinder Ranger with the Scout in the Swift Hunter concept?

Is the Ranger/Scout build (using skirmish and greater manyshot) superior to full-round attacks? Is there a better combo for a Ranger archer build? Is there a combination with better spellcasting, even, that I have missed?

Thanks for your ideas!

 

[IronWolf]

I am creating an elf archer build to enter a running campaign at 8th level. We're playing a mix of 3.X and Pathfinder. Skills are PF, many Feats, as well (as is the feat progression), as well as most classes.

A character of mine in a current 3.5 campaign is currently Ranger6/Scout3. As my DM will attest I am a poor power gamer, so I haven't done the math behind things to consider what makes the best optimization. But I can comment on playability.

I like a lot the Scout brings to the build, but I don't like about the Scout (flavor-wise) is that you have to move all the time.
Can you please offer your advice on how to create the build? What would your Archer build look like? Are there any issues combining the Pathfinder Ranger with the Scout in the Swift Hunter concept?

Is the Ranger/Scout build (using skirmish and greater manyshot) superior to full-round attacks? Is there a better combo for a Ranger archer build? Is there a combination with better spellcasting, even, that I have missed?

So far I have been quite happy with the build. I have a large amount of flexibility with him. If I find myself in a place where I can't easily move the 10' to get skirmish damage, I can always just use a full attack with rapid shot to still do a reasonable amount of damage.

At the moment I still tend to use full attack actions as opposed to skirmish, but I think I might be hitting the spot where I should consider doing the math to see if it makes more sense to focus on skirmish damage with Greater Manyshot. I have not done that math yet - but in either case I feel I have several options available to me as a ranged weapon user to inflict some damage.

So to me, a Ranger/Scout with Swift Hunter feels like a pretty good build so far, I have no disappointments.

 

[HyrumOWC]

You might also want to check out the Genius Guide to Archer Archtypes, a product we released a few weeks ago:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/reviews/277915-genius-guide-archer-archtypes.html

Hyrum.
Super Genius Games
"We err on the side of awesome."

 

[Xendria]

If you are dead set on going with 3.X swift hunter, use Vital Strike as much as possible. This allows you to move and still deal decent damage with your single attack AND give you your skirmish bonus.

I am currently playing an archer in a campaign, and I have found straight PF fighter to be the best possible class for it. The greater WS & WF feats plus the Weapon training class ability add +5 attack / +7 damage. The attack bonus just makes it easier to Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim more often. Penetrating Strike and Greater Penetrating Strike also allow for more weapon enhancements focused towards damage and over coming DR. The increase in feats gives you the ability to gain the entire Archery tree fairly quickly and still have room for more useful feats. After playing a Swift Hunter in 3.5 and a PF fighter archer build now, I very much prefer the fighter.

Also as an Elf, you will be able to use an Elven Curve Blade for a melee weapon when needed, and your second weapon training can increase that. This will make you decent in melee if it comes down to it. Even without a high them being class skills you can still have good stealth and perception modifiers, or you could take one level of Ranger.

 

[Malachei]

Thanks for the comments.

Xendria... good idea, but a fighter is not fitting the fluff. Flavor-wise, I want the character to be a ranger and sniper. It has to be an elf, although a half-elf would make a much better ranger in Pathfinder (why is that???), and every elf who doesn't go wizard seems to lose some of his potential -- now once, I don't play a wizard, and then this makes it an even more suboptimal choice

Basically, the character is a member of an elite elven hunter/defender unit, guarding and protecting the homelands. I'd need good stealth and tracking for the character, and I'm looking forward to using some of the ranger spells. Of course, having more spellcasting would be even better.

So which of these three builds makes the best archer. What would you people say:

o Ranger
o Ranger / Scout
o Ranger / Rogue

Although the scout would fit best flavor-wise, I'm still not sure I really appreciate the skirmishing mechanic. Always having to move does not seem a good deal, and somehow affects me flavor-wise -- suppose I want to hide in one place (as snipers tend to do). Having to choose between full-attack action with rapid shot and manyshot / greater manyshot will make me calculating damage a lot... well.

I don't know if you see a ranger with a few levels of rogue as a suboptimal choice in Pathfinder, compared to a single class ranger or compared to a few scout levels. I'd really have a sneak-like effect to emphasize the sniper role. If there is a feat that can do that, even better.

What do you think?

 

[ruemere]

I'm a bit surprised that no one else has given you this link:
Treatmonk's Lab at PathfinderSrd.com.

There you will find optimization guide for (Pathfinder based) rangers - check "The Archer Ranger ***" build.

Another strong possibility: Archer Fighter by Rogue Eidolon.

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[Malachei]

I'm a bit surprised that no one else has given you this link:
Treatmonk's Lab at PathfinderSrd.com.

There you will find optimization guide for (Pathfinder based) rangers - check "The Archer Ranger ***" build.

Another strong possibility: Archer Fighter by Rogue Eidolon.

Regards,
Ruemere

Thanks. I had read the handbook before the post -- it is limited to Pathfinder core only. Because I can use 3.5, as well, I am considering different options that the handbook does not address (specifically the question of going ranger multiclass with scout, or with rogue, or just single-class).

More help, please?

 

[ruemere]

In that case, I cannot help. I tend to limit game material in order to avoid rule conflicts.

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[IronWolf]

Basically, the character is a member of an elite elven hunter/defender unit, guarding and protecting the homelands. I'd need good stealth and tracking for the character, and I'm looking forward to using some of the ranger spells. Of course, having more spellcasting would be even better.

I've found for a ranged based ranger that a lot of the 1st level spells are quite handy. While certainly options open up as you go higher at this point I wouldn't find my current ranger/scout feeling like he was missing something because his spellcasting is limited - I can cause more damage with a volley of arrows than most spells that would be at my disposal.

So which of these three builds makes the best archer. What would you people say:

o Ranger
o Ranger / Scout
o Ranger / Rogue

I definitely lean towards the Ranger/Scout with the swift hunter feat. The favored enemy/skirmish stacking are a very nice thing in my opinion.

Although the scout would fit best flavor-wise, I'm still not sure I really appreciate the skirmishing mechanic. Always having to move does not seem a good deal, and somehow affects me flavor-wise -- suppose I want to hide in one place (as snipers tend to do). Having to choose between full-attack action with rapid shot and manyshot / greater manyshot will make me calculating damage a lot... well.

To me scout just opened up a lot of options, allowing my character more flexibility on the field of combat. He has a lot of tricks up his sleeve, being able to stand and do a full attack of rapid shot or move and use greater manyshot/skirmish damage. Possibly throw Hunter's Mercy on in situations you want to be that sniper role.

As for choosing between which option is best to go with... Really, you should only have to calculate average damage once for each of your attacks, right? You wouldn't need to recalculate for every combat encounter. To me that is a bonus that I have to choose between two methods of attacks, both of which can cause a fair amount of damage (yeah... I haven't done the math yet either.... )

I'm a bit surprised that no one else has given you this link:
Treatmonk's Lab at PathfinderSrd.com.

There you will find optimization guide for (Pathfinder based) rangers - check "The Archer Ranger ***" build.

Thanks for the links!

 

[pawsplay]

I would suggest Ranger X/Rogue 3 for a sniper. The mobility side of Scout does not mesh well with a quiet ambusher, although Vital Strike and Deadly Shot can strengthen that aspect. If there's not already an equivalent to Swift Tracker for ranger/rogue, I imagine one could be whipped up in a jiffy. Sneak attack, as opposed to skirmish, would allow you to actually use the snipe maneuver, and would give you easier access to lots of extra damage with a full attack if the situation were set up correctly.

Personally, I find the scoot-and-shoot mechanic a little weird sometimes anyway. Move ten feet, shoot someone paralyzed, move ten feet while invisible to shoot, etc. Most of the time it's fun, but sometimes, it's like, "Ok, that was weird." If it were up to me, I would have given scouts sudden strike, with the scoot-and-shoot an additional option for activating the damage.