Please rate Energy Substitution

[Sinjin the Rogue]

I don't understand why people refer to energy Substitution (sonic) as being cheesy. It offers a spell caster the ability to use the damage spells in his/her arsenal an intelligent means of doing damage to a wider array of creatures.

My 15th level wizard just took the feat and chose sonic as the substitute energy type. The question is, what would a high level wizard with an enhanced intelligence of 24, a knowledge arcana skill of 25 and a knowledge of the planes skill of 25 choose to do? Without question, the most intelligent thing to do is to choose the energy type that would affect the largest array of potential foes. This is certainly not a "cheesy" choice, but one made from careful consideration.

Wizards already have a lot to overcome from the foes they face at high level. In my current adventure, we are facing a plethora of creatures with a spell resistance of 25 or greater. Roughly 50 percent of the spells my wizard casts on enemies have no effect, but the spells get used-up nevertheless. The enemies also have fairly high saving throws, so even when spell resistance is overcome, the enemy still only takes half damage (or no damage if the enemy has evasion) from most damage dealing spells. Some might argue that save-or-die spells would be better suited to these foes, but when luck-of-the-die causes a caster to waste his/her high level spells from an enemy's spell resistance, he/she has to fall back on mid to lower level spells to make a difference.

Then too, the enemies at high level generally have more intelligence, and those with spells or magical aids typically have spell selections or items that negate their weaknesses. New creature templates also combine monster types so that one type's strengths overcome the other type's weaknesses. A recent example is the fire giant we fought, which turned out to be a 1/2 fire giant/ 1/2 fiend that was immune to cold based attacks. Just when a wizard thinks he/she is going to unleash a good double-damage cold based spell, he/she discovers that the spell was all for naught.

Given all that an arcane caster faces, energy immunity sonic is a very logical choice. Why would anyone characterize this choice as "cheesy", when all it does is provide a caster with the ability to have a greater impact on the success of his/her party? I certainly wouldn't characterize those who do not choose ES sonic as "cheesy" simply because they play a certain way.

 

[guido1999]

Isn't energy substitution a pre-requisite for energy admixture? That feat effectively doubles damage dice for energy type spells. That's pretty potent.

 

[Celebrim]

Suppose I suggested a new feat:

"Supreme Spell (Metamagic)
You are a b@d@$$.
Prerequisite: At least one metamagic feat and a bad attitude.
Benifits: All damage that effects the target from a spell with Supreme Spell feat applied is doubled. Supreme Spells do not allow saving throws, and have +4 spell penetration. A Supreme Spell takes up a spell slot of the same level as the spell it is applied too."

And someone applied descriptors like broken, cheesy, unbalanced, and 'poorly thought out' to my feat, could I defend my feat with any of the following:

"Surpreme Spell is not cheesy because....

"It offers a spell caster the ability to use the damage spells in his/her arsenal an intelligent means of doing damage to a wider array of creatures."

"what [feat] would a high level wizard with an enhanced intelligence of 24, a knowledge arcana skill of 25 and a knowledge of the planes skill of 25 choose..."

"This is certainly not a "cheesy" choice, but one made from careful consideration."

"Why would anyone characterize this choice as "cheesy", when all it does is provide a caster with the ability to have a greater impact on the success of his/her party?"

Well?

The reason that 'Supreme Spell' and 'Energy Substitution (Sonic)' are cheesy is that they don't in fact require all that careful of consideration to choose. Supreme Spell is utterly broken and if available, any spell caster would be silly not to choose it. It is so utterly broken in fact, that I think most players would feel guilty in taking it where it in fact available and no one would seriously consider introducing such a feat except as an example.

Energy Substitution (Sonic) is not nearly so broken, but neither is very careful consideration needed to choose Energy Substitution (Sonic) over say Energy Substitution (Acid) or Energy Substitution (Electricity). If you are taking Energy Substitution as a feat there is almost no advantage to be gained by taking anything other than Sonic, and much advantage to be gained from Sonic compared to any other possible choice. Sonic has absolute advantages in how likely it is to effect its target, and how effect it is versus objects and structures. A quick perusal of the core spells show that sonic spells typically balance the advantages of the sonic energy type by doing less than the normal ammount of damage for a spell of that level.

Thus, Energy Substitution (Sonic) is a cheap means of getting around the normal restrictions on sonic damage and gaining additional advantages without paying much of a cost for them. It is clearly one that is generally taken not for any particular reason having to do with role playing, but as you yourself have confessed for reasons having to do with the particular rules of the game you are playing and to gain advantage during play. Taking 'Energy Substitution (Sonic' is seen by many to be metatgaming, munchkinish and rules exploitive and thus 'cheesy'.

To fix this problem, various suggestions have been made: make at least one other type of ES a prerequisite for ES (sonic), forbid ES (sonic) altogether, force ES (sonic) spells to take up a +1 slot, or reduce the size of dice used by a sonic spell by one step (for instance a 10th level sonic fireball would do 10d4 damage not 10d6). Once such changes are made, you really do have to carefully consider the utility and purpose of taking sonic versus other choices and you may therefore be coerced into making choices best less on percieved advantages in utility and more on how well such a choice fits the style and personality of your character.

And that is the main reason for having balance anyway - to discourage everyone from making the same set of choices and encourage diversity and originality.

 

[Sinjin the Rogue]

Firstly, there is no comparison between your "Supreme Spell" example and Energy Substitution. Please, don't try to defend your viewpoint by introducing irrelevent arguments. I am not talking about introducing house rules that would provide me an unimpeded advantage. I'm merely defending the ability to use those abilities within the game to their utmost advantage.

"It is clearly one that is generally taken not for any particular reason having to do with role playing, but as you yourself have confessed for reasons having to do with the particular rules of the game you are playing and to gain advantage during play."

No, what I said was that my character, having an int of 24, and knowledge arcane and knowledge of the planes skills of 25, would, after careful consideration, choose Energy substitution (sonic) because it would provide him with the ability to affect a wider array of creatures. It is a roleplaying decision, as an intelligent caster would certainly make that choice, unless he/she had some other roleplay reason for deciding otherwise.

Of course, I added additional context to demonstrate that there are a number of reasons why a spellcaster would want to make the most of any ability at his/her disposal. Spell resistance, high saving throws, and various monster templates being three reasons provided, that all make it much for difficult for casters at higher levels to have an impact on the success of an adventuring group. A high level wizard would almost certainly have experienced one or all of these types of scenarios, and after having done so, researched any means to diminish obstacles that block his/her ability to have such an impact.

"Taking 'Energy Substitution (Sonic' is seen by many to be metatgaming, munchkinish and rules exploitive and thus 'cheesy'."

Oh, and that means that the many people who don't see this tactic as cheesy are just plainwrong eh? I suppose a fighter who chooses the most damaging weapon at his/her disposal is also munchkinish, metagaming, exploitative and cheesy to you? Please? here's a question: Why do you care what other people do with their characters? Why do you feel the need to call other people "cheesy" for doing something that is perfectly within the rules of the game, and that makes perfect sense?

I think there are a lot of DM's out there who love to characterize things as "broken", simply because they don't like it when their players figure out a way to defeat the DM's plans for them.

Of course, if you want to create a caster who does not use energy substitution, by all means, do it, and no one will think any less of you either.

 

[Merlion]

I agree with Sinjin actualy. I only have a problem with the sonic thing when it is in fact pure metagaming...no thought to the character at all. But logical yes I somewhat high level, experineced, knowledgeble wizard...who has a logical,utilitarian frame of mind quite probably would make that choice, for the reasons he mentions.
Edit: Ohh and Hypersmurf, notice I said many spells that reasonble SHOULD have their secondary effects altered by a different element type. I see no reason why an "acid burst"(Acid substituted sound burst) would cause deafness..since theirs no sound involved.

 

[Stalker0]

I think this is how more metamagic feats should operate. Its not always about sheer power, but about style. And any metamagic that doesn't have a level increase is good in my book

While I think sonic is the strongest one, you also lose out on the double damage against fire or cold creatures and such. Therefore, I don't think its that much stronger.

 

[Celebrim]

I am not introducing an irrelevant argument. I am trying to explain to you why someone would consider Energy Substitution (Sonic) to be cheesy.

"Why would anyone characterize this choice as "cheesy", when all it does is provide a caster with the ability to have a greater impact on the success of his/her party?"

I am trying to show you that the above argument (and all similar ones) if it serves to defend Energy Substitution (Sonic) from the label 'cheesy', serves to protect everything from the label 'cheesy' no matter how cheesy it may be.

Mind you 'cheesy' is not my prefered term. I prefer 'unbalanced', but I'm assuming that the sentiment is basically the same.

When I think of cheesy I think of 'I'd be embarrassed to take that combo because I'd clearly be meta-gaming to gain the maximum advantage for my character by manipulating the rules system'. Cheesy is like taking INT 14 in gurps + 2 points of weak will for every character, but stopping taking it when the DM crushes the combo by reducing the penalty for weak will. 'But its useful...' does not mean it isn't 'cheesy'

I am not trying to say that you are wrong if you don't see ES (sonic) as cheesy. Clearly the advantage gained thereby is only marginal, but noone is suggesting that advantage doesn't exist either. I am, as I said, just trying to establish that if something is cheesy, that it is useful or that IC the character may see the power as useful, does not mean it is not cheesy. If you believe the 'usefulness' of an ability justifies its existance without qualification, then you have to believe that 'Supreme Spell' is a justifiable non-cheesy feat.

There really isn't a difference between a house rule and a published rule other than that one is published. There are plenty of published rules out there that were much less well thought out than ES (sonic).

I don't care what you do with your characters so long as they aren't in my campaign. Do whatever you like. I was just trying to show why some people might consider ES (sonic) cheesy, which you claim to not understand. Frankly, I think you do understand, you are just being defensive.

I certainly hope my players will be able to defeat 'my plans'. If they don't, it is going to be a very short campaign. What I don't want to see is a world filled with cookie cutter characters because thier are a limited number of 'best choices' which the player fills pressured to take else he is short changing himself. I want to see a game where every player's personal style can be equally rewarding. I don't want to see a campaign where players, after careful consideration, decide that ES (sonic) is 'the best' ES and take it accordingly. That is conducive to roll playing, not role playing.

Then again, if you can't see the difference between taking an advantage, and meta-gaming within rules limitations to maximize your advantage, then maybe you really don't understand.

Making sonic restricted is philosophically no different than making 'unnamed', 'insight', or 'luck' bonuses rarer and therefore more expensive than 'enhancement' bonuses. The rarity is itself an advantage. Would you think it a good idea to allow Energy Substitution (Force) at the same cost as Energy Substitution (Electricity)?

Like I said, this is a stylish feat, and I like it alot. But sonic needs to have some limitations because it is just too good, and it would be even better if every energy descriptor provided its own particular 'style' (difficult though that might be to balance).

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

It's a good feat. I'm undecided on whether ES: Sonic is unbalanced and I think there's a difference between wizard and sorceror characters with regard to this.

For a sorceror, ES: Sonic is not a really big deal. Granted, it offers him a way around nearly all energy immunities and resistances but a good selection of fire, cold, and electricity spells (maybe fireball, cone of cold, and Chain Lightning or Chain Lightning, Firebrand, and Icy Burst) along with ES: acid would do that as well. Alternately, a sorceror could focus on fire or cold spells and use the opposite ES feat to gain double damage against most elemental foes. That's probably just as advantageous a route for a sorceror to take.

A wizard, on the other hand is a different kettle of fish. Since he's unable to spontaneously apply metamagic feats, he can't use ES: Fire or ES: cold to always have a double damage elemental type available to him. ES is only useful to him in a few situations:
1. It enables him to take advantage of DC boosting feats (Bloodline of Fire) or abilities (Elemental Savant's elemental focus)
2. He has advance knowledge of what he will be fighting and can prepare accordingly.
3. He selects ES: sonic because nearly nothing is immune to it so he can prepare all his spells as sonics on the assumption that, seven times out of ten it will be as good as normal spells, and 2.9 times out of ten it will be better. (For the .1 times out of 10 that he's facing a bard, destrachan, or Formian...oh well, there's still Magic Missile).

The last reason is applicable to all wizards and most situations and it's why most wizards who take ES select ES: Sonic rather than one of the others.

Is that cheesy or unbalanced? Maybe. It's just as easy to actively defend against (with spells, for instance) as other elements--in fact, it's easier for two reasons (1. There's a very good argument that Silence stops ALL sonic spells and 2. Odds are good that a wizard with sonics has nothing BUT sonics; wizards with fire spells often have some cold and electricity as well). Also, there's very little that sonic damage deals double damage to (unlike ES: Fire or cold for instance). On the other hand, it does bypass passive resistances quite nicely--and passive resistance is far more common than active resistance. I guess that whether the ES: Sonic is unbalanced or not will depend on how much the DM relies upon passive elemental resistance to protect his bad guys.

 

[Al'Kelhar]

The three DMs in my playing group all agreed that Energy Substitution (Sonic) would not be available, although the other forms of Energy Substitution would be. I am one of those DMs, but raised the issue of the feat's game balance when I proposed that my wizard character in one of the other DM's games take the feat. The Sonic version of the feat simply has an unbalancing effect on the effectiveness of damaging spells.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

 

[Seravin]

I have to admit that I find Energy Substitution (Sonic) to be a little cheesy to me also, but I let one of my players take it anyway because she wanted a combat wizard and it does truly fit her style.

That said, there is one secondary effect that does carry over for ES:sonic. According to the Silence spell (last line in the phb desc.) it blocks all sonic and language based attacks - specifically mentioning a Horn of Blasting.
To her credit my player still took the feat anyway knowing that any third level cleric could defeat any of her modified spells; but then, she doesn't modify all her spells either.

edit: curse the grammar brownies!