Plots in a Sandbox

[rogueattorney]

Those have always been my best games. I was often amazed at how good the players were in providing me with seeds, which I then turned into hooks. It was especially fun when they drew connections and conclusions different than my own ideas, which I found better than my own, and so took their ideas and scrapped my own. They look smart, and I know they are interested since it came from them.

Absolutely. This is why I always say that a game with great players and a mediocre DM is better than a game with mediocre players and a great DM.

 

[The Shaman]

I was often amazed at how good the players were in providing me with seeds, which I then turned into hooks. It was especially fun when they drew connections and conclusions different than my own ideas, which I found better than my own, and so took their ideas and scrapped my own.

Except that's not what I'm talking about at all.

I don't want players who give me ideas for adventures; I want players who create the adventures themselves. For my Flashing Blades campaign, I don't want characters to join an NPC conspiracy to assassinate Richelieu; I want them to decide on their own to assassinate Richelieu, or better still, for one of the players to decide his character is going to replace Richelieu as first minister.

 

[Umbran]

The minute you suggest that there is only one hook, I suggest that you are not running a sandbox. At least not as the term is commonly used, or as I use the term. What you are running, AFAICT, is what is usually called a "railroad".

Not at all. I am thinking more in line with The Shaman. Sandbox is not "the GM supplies some (perhaps large) number of hooks, choose one", limited to some finite number of set pieces the GM offers. In a sandbox, the particular hooks the GM creates are only some of the activity available.

They could pursue the hook. They could just decide to sit in a tavern, drink beer, and flap their jaws. I've had sessions like that. The players chose to not follow a hook, with some inkling of the repercussions, and instead they sat in a tavern doing social roleplay among themselves. An orphanage burned down, kids died, but they had a blast. You can tell me their choice had no meaning all you like.

As this was what we'd now call a sandbox, they could also have just as easily decided to ignore the hook, and started to set up their own crime syndicate, even though I'd given them no information on organized crime in the area.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Ah. I obviously misunderstood.

I thought that I said multiple options -- not multiple hooks -- were necessary for choices to be meaningful. I thought you disagreed. I guess you were actually trying to agree, disagreeably.

RC

 

[Snoweel]

The minute you suggest that there is only one hook, I suggest that you are not running a sandbox. t least not as the term is commonly used, or as I use the term. What you are running, AFAICT, is what is usually called a "railroad".

Are you saying that if a game is not a sandbox it's a railroad?

 

[howandwhy99]

Are you saying that if a game is not a sandbox it's a railroad?

Seeing from what is hashing out in the other thread, some may say just that. Nonlinear vs. Linear seems to be what Sandbox vs. Railroad is shaping into.

 

[Snoweel]

Seeing from what is hashing out in the other thread, some may say just that. Nonlinear vs. Linear seems to be what Sandbox vs. Railroad is shaping into.

Hence the other threads. I think the community has discovered a brand-new snobbery amongst them and they're keen to clamber aboard.

So is a game defined as either linear or not, or is it sandbox or not?

Are they two different axes?

Or do sandbox and linear exist at two ends of a finite continuum?

If so, who draws the definitive lines?

And if not, aren't all games one, or the other, or both at once?

 

[howandwhy99]

Hence the other threads. I think the community has discovered a brand-new snobbery amongst them and they're keen to clamber aboard.

I don't think non-linearity is the "right" way to do things. It's just one way to run a game and can be just parts at that. Either side of this is going to offer its' own benefits.

So is a game defined as either linear or not, or is it sandbox or not?

Are they two different axes?

Or do sandbox and linear exist at two ends of a finite continuum?

IMO, linear is pretty much an expectation players will follow actions scripted for them to follow, while nonlinear means they are open to attempt whatever they wish to in the game world and have there be consequences to their actions. I think it is a binary, but it certainly does not need to be absolute in any game. A solid railroad is a script handed to the players. A flat out, sky's the limit sandbox game will still limit the players in at least one way. For if a player may attempt anything in such a game, it is still be limited to a single imaginary space. And I would agree that is a limitation, if that is what we are viewing as indicative of "linear" games.

If so, who draws the definitive lines?

And if not, aren't all games one, or the other, or both at once?

A group can ask for either one and draw the line themselves. No gaming style is somehow mandatory. Do you really believe the hobby needs to draw lines across itself? I've learned to let people enjoy what they want. We don't need precision cut boxes to fit them in nor a call for all boxes, or terms really, to be cast off for meaningless. Linear vs. nonlinear seems fine and clear enough. And if groups want to have them be one way or another at any given point, let 'em.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Are you saying that if a game is not a sandbox it's a railroad?

Not getting into a pissing match with you, mate. Please respect the moderators, who have already spoken.

 

[Ariosto]

There are "different games" in broader, grander strokes than some more particular details that may nonetheless go with them better or worse.

The more stereotyped the RPG, the slicker its chrome-plated engine can be. Call of Cthulhu; Paranoia; 3:16 ... such fearful symmetries. Beautiful, maybe even "edgy" in a certain sense -- but the furthest thing from messing with the messer.

What do you call it when the whole boatload might go over the edge?