Plots in a Sandbox

howandwhy99

Adventurer
What's stopping more powerful predators from moving into areas full of weaker prey (including the PCs) and hunting them through superior use of stealth and violence?
A number of different things do, see below, but emptied areas are also repopulated. If no 1st level monsters exist or if not enough exist to hold an empty area, than the next nearest group of monsters will claim it. These can be 2nd level allies, but they can be non-allies too.

  1. Dungeon levels exist as the configuration of an enemy force. Pawns are up front with more powerful allies holding commensurately more secure positions.
  2. Non-lawful monsters do prey on each other, but this activity maintains an equilibrium - the levels of the dungeon.
  3. Allied monsters in a dungeon view any uninvited incursions into their territory as potential attacks.
  4. Weaker monsters tend to have poorer treasure and lesser fortified areas anyways. Not something most more powerful creatures want.
  5. The PCs are not the only threat to the dungeon and are dealt with as resources allow.
  6. It is not only dangerous to leave one's own territory, but more dangerous to enter unaligned territory. This goes double for entering enemy territory - which is what the PCs often do as they seek to kill things and take their stuff.
  7. The accuracy of knowledge of an area being entered by a monster is a measure of the monster's resources and thereby difficulty. Monsters in a territory they do not know are weaker.
Many of these answers boil down to self preservation and self interest. As your question is looking for in-game rationale, there are plenty of in-game reasons why dungeon levels exist.
 

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Janx

Hero
To some dude on page 2: I'm not a sandbox DM. My advice on "plots" is still relevant, but you will have to make it fit to your game, as per any advice.

to Ariosto: good points. I'd prefer you not refer to "old D&D" as that leads to edition bashing or something. You're main point about the dungeon level = difficulty = PC's choose to go deeper when they want to is good.

To snoweel: "epic story" is just as much if not more wish fulfillment. It is the players taking center stage of a big play, about them becoming victorious over evil.

Somebody else answered Lost's question about the Necromancer plot and the lumber business plot very well. If the PC's don't take initiative, you create a plot like the necromancer to drive them to action (because inaction will be very bad for them). If the PCs do finally see an opportunity (like the lumber business), you roll with that, and make threats to the business that keep them busy and happy. You don't destroy their business, but by makng threats to what they value, you engage them.

So if the PCs ignore the hook about the necromance, and get into this lumber business, you let the necro simmer, run some "threats" to the business" adventures. Then you bring the necromancer back as a "epic" threat to the business. You make it relevant to what they want to protect.

As Ariosto mentioned (can't believe I'm referencing Ariosto, we usually disagree on plot stuff), there are guidelines on what difficulty to make the bad guys if you're not doing the "sandbox" thing. Personally, I don't see why a sandbox has to be like a layerered dungeon where the danger goes up when it gets deeper. It can also be like Oblivion, where the NPCs are scaled to the level of the PC. But the point is, it can be whatever you need, and I define need as "whatever it takes to make a good game for the players."


Now one thing I see a hint of in some of the conversation, is the idea that there are "epic quest" story plots. As a DM, when you create the campaign, you might have some ideas of the mega evil the party is "going to face" eventually. I do not recommend actually planning this out or introducing it to the players at low level. You have no guarrantee the players or PCs you have now, will be there for the second half of the campaign where it actually matters.

Furthermore, the best way to "keep" players in their CR range is to make content relevant to that. They don't hear about the big high level problems because they're not high enough level to be connected to them via contacts and reputation. The party hears about problems in their range, an rumors of problems just above their range.

Let me approach this from another angle for a party not in a dungeon. This might also help relate it to sandbox play.

pre-adventure (or Act 1 Scene 1), the party exists in a static state. They have a strengths and weaknesses. They have whatever operations and resources going on. Let's say it's the party with the lumber business.

If the party hasn't really got a direction beyond that, you need to give them some stimulus. This will come in the form of threats or opportunities.

The party can probably only handle 1 active threat against them (I'm not talking a single encounter, I'm talking about a general adventure's worth of related problem and encounters to resolve it). Too many threats and the party will fail. The active threat will make the party react, which is a form of action.

If you want the party to be pro-active, you need to give them opportunities. Rumors, demonstrated weaknesses in their competition/rivals/enemies, etc. Basically stuff that makes the PCs think they could take advantage of it and advance themselves (not just XP-wise).

Where concurrent threats are best limited to a small number for game play purposes, opportunities can be limitless. Players don't really have a choice with a threat, if you don't deal with it, you're screwed. But opportunities are the real choices. Because players are free to choose or ignore them. This concept would probably help bring sandbox elements to a campaign.

The idea of opportunities is important. As a DM, you could make every entitiy a 20th char. This means the 1st level party has no real chance to advance or grow, because they can't solve anything because everything is significantly stronger than them. So a DM doesn't do that. They make a world with opportunities for the PCs to grow and expand. Stuff has weaknesses so the party can take advantage of them.
 

Janx

Hero
A number of different things do, see below, but emptied areas are also repopulated. If no 1st level monsters exist or if not enough exist to hold an empty area, than the next nearest group of monsters will claim it. These can be 2nd level allies, but they can be non-allies too.

  1. Dungeon levels exist as the configuration of an enemy force. Pawns are up front with more powerful allies holding commensurately more secure positions.
  2. Non-lawful monsters do prey on each other, but this activity maintains an equilibrium - the levels of the dungeon.
  3. Allied monsters in a dungeon view any uninvited incursions into their territory as potential attacks.
  4. Weaker monsters tend to have poorer treasure and lesser fortified areas anyways. Not something most more powerful creatures want.
  5. The PCs are not the only threat to the dungeon and are dealt with as resources allow.
  6. It is not only dangerous to leave one's own territory, but more dangerous to enter unaligned territory. This goes double for entering enemy territory - which is what the PCs often do as they seek to kill things and take their stuff.
  7. The accuracy of knowledge of an area being entered by a monster is a measure of the monster's resources and thereby difficulty. Monsters in a territory they do not know are weaker.
Many of these answers boil down to self preservation and self interest. As your question is looking for in-game rationale, there are plenty of in-game reasons why dungeon levels exist.

As a tangent to the nature of the level of dungeon=CR of monsters idea:

I think it is an illusion that the players have choice as to whether they face stronger threats. With useful intel, a party that knows it is 1st level and that monsters get tougher as they go deeper, they will not choose to go too deep. In fact, odds are good, they'll clear out level 1, attempt level 2, and if they take more damage than they can easily heal, they will stop. It is highly unlikely they will advance to the 5th level, even in a mad race for it.

Thus, while the players have a "choice" it is not a meaningful Choice.

Furthermore, if the DM deprives the party of intel, and they run into a high level enemy, the players also do not have a meaningful choice. They didn't really choose to face it, and their most logical choice will be to retreat, if they figure it out.
 

Snoweel

First Post
I don't normally like to ask this question, because I recognize that all of us can post whatever we like to any thread we choose, but I have to wonder why you decided to post to this thread specifically about sandbox-style play

I've always seen the term 'sandbox' as a quantitative descriptor, so when I see posters using it qualitatively, to exclude others (e.g. Ariosto's most recent post where he carefully scoffs at another poster's definition of the term 'sandbox') then I'm compelled to find out where the line is drawn between 'sandbox' and 'not sandbox', and who exactly is empowered to draw that line.
 


Snoweel

First Post
To snoweel: "epic story" is just as much if not more wish fulfillment. It is the players taking center stage of a big play, about them becoming victorious over evil.

True but isn't this really just semantics?

The assumed agreement is that we all sit around the table so that the PCs can star in an epic story. That's their wish fulfilled; it's why we're there.

The wish fulfillment I was talking about was specific character wishes - find this exact sword, defeat this specific NPC.

Otherwise your definition of 'wish fulfillment' also applies to the sandbox game ExploderWizard said would not appeal to those motivated by wish fulfillment. Or any fantasy RPG for that matter.
 

The Shaman

First Post
I've always seen the term 'sandbox' as a quantitative descriptor, so when I see posters using it qualitatively, to exclude others (e.g. Ariosto's most recent post where he carefully scoffs at another poster's definition of the term 'sandbox') then I'm compelled to find out where the line is drawn between 'sandbox' and 'not sandbox', and who exactly is empowered to draw that line.
'Sandbox' is a term co-opted from computer games to describe a style of world-building and related play that was earlier known as status quo world-building.

For my part, I'm reverting to the earlier usage as some seem intent on stretching sandbox to include elements that have little or no relationship to what has been held to be a sandbox, which I believe may also be what Ariosto was reacting to.

May I suggest forking to another thread if you want to further discuss the origins and usage of the term, instead of diverting this one?
 


Janx

Hero
Noted.What you're describing is illusionist refereeing, which is in many ways the antithesis of running a sandbox game.

Sincerely yours,

"some dude"

Ah, twas you. By the time I got back to this thread, it had grown so I couldn't recall who made the comment when I finished reading it all and could respond to stuff.

As to illusionist refereeing, it is my opinion that even sandbox gaming (as run by a human) is an illusion. Heck, I wrote a blog entry a few years back making just that point. That doesn't invalidate the play style, simply that I'm looking at what's going on from a different perspective.

My real point is, to GM is to run an illusion. There are lots of ways to make the decisions to run that illusion. Do what makes sense and makes for a good game. But don't delude yourself.

I'm a software developer, so when I think sandbox, the purest form of it is to run a program to seed the world, and then to crunch the actions and movements of all the entities. Much like Oblivion does, tough even that model has its shortcomings. The point is, to remove the human from the equation of what exists and what decisions the NPCs make, such that everything IS impartial.
 


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