PMC fixes

[Flipguarder]

PMC (paragon multi-classing) is just a terrible idea for almost every build imaginable. Has anybody made a tested (and approved, hopefully) method of re-working the pre-reqs or the benefits to this option?

 

[Alisair Longreach]

The Paragon multiclassing rules in the PHB are really suboptimal. Swap an At-Will, swap Paragon powers for lower level class powers. No 11th level Action Point feature, no 16th level Path feature. 4 feats as a prerequisite.

As a DM and player I prefer all-out single-class as most multi-class combinations dilute your character role. It is also my opinion that all multi-class feats are broken as you get free Skill Training and access to a class feature and implement use and access to a second class' Paragon Paths which opens up the possibility of some nasty min-maxing cheese.

 

[Garthanos]

The Paragon multiclassing rules in the PHB are really suboptimal. Swap an At-Will, swap Paragon powers for lower level class powers. No 11th level Action Point feature, no 16th level Path feature. 4 feats as a prerequisite.

As a DM and player I prefer all-out single-class as most multi-class combinations dilute your character role. It is also my opinion that all multi-class feats are broken as you get free Skill Training and access to a class feature and implement use and access to a second class' Paragon Paths which opens up the possibility of some nasty min-maxing cheese.

the skill training often overlaps for me... INT clases have Arcana a lot.
And implement use is rather a must have to even dabble... rather than a bonus... the class feature that is usually a gimped version of it ...or only for one encounter (its a daily) Access to the other classes powers? is a wierd privilage cause it still costs you a feat just to swap... not to have as an additional but to swap... feh...
To get learned spell caster I sometimes end up putting more in wisdom that I would have... which means I am statistically less optimal.. (sneaky balancing mechanisms are in there imperfect though they be.)

if you really are wanting to capture the classes feel you need an at-will... ie hybrid and mc doesnt really do it for me.

Unless you are one of those charopters MC feats are powerful but not broken in my opinion.

 

[jstomel]

I have to say, I have been trying to figure out a build that will work well with paragon multiclassing. I think that combining the fighter ability to mark everyone they attack with a wizards area and blast attacks would make a powerful combination. I haven't playtested it yet, though.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

PMC isn't quite as bad as some people would lead you to believe. I agree that if you don't consider very carefully how to build the character then it will be somewhat weaker in general than taking a PP, but I also think that a lot of the potentially seriously good PMC builds simply haven't been found yet. Way back in the beginning the gleemax charop board people turned up their noses at it, and there has been very little examination of the possibilities since.

With a lot of new stuff out now etc I think PMCs can be quite nice, though I really don't have the time and energy to delve too far into it. You may never build some of the stupid DPR type charop builds that way, and it may be tricky to find the good builds in all the chaff, but I think they're out there. Now that people have hybrids to play with it is just not getting much attention.

 

[Rothe_]

The new feats that require PMC start to make it more viable. It may not be "as good" as normal paragon path, but it is getting close enough that you can consider it for some builds.

For example the sorcerer PMC feat is pretty sweet. It adds your str or dex to arcane power damage (+2 extra at epic). This can be quite nice for some things, like Rogue Sorcerers who can use daggers for sneak attacks, but make the attacks with arcane powers.

I think one fix might be to add a few extra feats for PMC, spread out through the paragon levels. This would compensate for having to take all the MC feats and then some PMC feats to be competitive.

 

[mkill]

It is also my opinion that all multi-class feats are broken as you get free Skill Training and access to a class feature and implement use and access to a second class' Paragon Paths

It's not broken because everybody can do it and monsters are spec'd to expect such characters. Individual multiclass feats are broken (Hero of Faith to name the guilty), but in general, the concept is fine.

Yes, in most cases it is a strictly worse option to take the Skill Training feat rather than to multiclass, but that's a problem with the Skill Training feat and not the other way around.

As for Paragon Multiclassing, well, a I see a lot of players who are still of the 3rd edition mindset of "mix as many classes as possible". You just need to accept the new paradigm of "stay within your main class unless there is a good reason for it".

In 4th edition, multiclassing in all forms, including hybrids, carries a big opportunity cost. It's not perfect, but if perfect balance is not possible I personally prefer if the system errs on the side of single-class characters. I just like straight character concepts rather than mixed bags of abilities.