• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

[Points of Light] Cleaning Rituals Up

C4

Explorer
Rituals are one of those things that 4e fans generally feel could have been done better, but that my group hasn't had much problem with. As a result I'd like to clean them up a bit, but will probably miss many wrinkly details without the aid of my fellow fans. So I've got two questions:

1. Which rituals do you consider...essential to the game, for lack of a better term? I.E., which answer needs that frequently pop up in the game world? (Raise Dead, frex.)

2. Which of these rituals stand out as problematic, and why?

Here's how I'm treating rituals: Instead of levels, each ritual falls into one of the three tiers. If you're a character of that tier, you can cast rituals of that tier and lower tiers. I think 4e's application of levels to rituals is a legacy thing, and I don't see any real advantage to sticking with levels.

Market prices and casting times are standardized; I set prices at the price of one consumable item of 1st/11th/21st level. Casting times are 1/4/16 hours, respectively. Component costs are semi-standardized; they're generally equivalent to market prices, unless the ritual effect calls for some price multiple. For example, I set Raise Dead at double the usual component cost. Do all these changes make rituals too cheap? Maybe, and I may tweak them later.

I've also stripped out the variable-by-skill-check effects of several rituals I've already converted, as many of them kinda seem to be shallow excuses to roll skill checks. For example, the skill check in Cure Disease creates a lot of tension so I left it as-is. But the skill checks involved with the various Portal spells make a trivial difference in the rituals' durations, so I simply set their durations at 1 minute.

I should also mention that PoL is much more consumable-focused than 4e. Instead of PCs getting a permanent item more-or-less every level and a bit of change on the side, PoL guidelines suggest many consumables and more pocket change, and a single [much more awesome] permanent item every five levels or so for each PC.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Raith5

Adventurer
I like the idea of consumables via rituals but I have to say that skills checks are one of the more fun things with 4th ed rituals IMO. I would be leery of giving that up. For one thing it makes ritual magic more variable. It also means that skills for casters are very important. Generally I think there should more interaction between the magic system and the skill system more generally.
 

Rituals are one of those things that 4e fans generally feel could have been done better, but that my group hasn't had much problem with. As a result I'd like to clean them up a bit, but will probably miss many wrinkly details without the aid of my fellow fans. So I've got two questions:

1. Which rituals do you consider...essential to the game, for lack of a better term? I.E., which answer needs that frequently pop up in the game world? (Raise Dead, frex.)

Brew Potion
Comprehend Languages/Tongues
(Dis)Enchant Magic Item
Hunter's Tune
Inquisitive's Eyes
Lullaby
Remove Affliction
Tenser's Floating Disk (the player who uses it a lot doesn't get much out of it)

2. Which of these rituals stand out as problematic, and why?

Remove Affliction. It was designed before skill DCs were updated, and it's never been errata'd. None of the original rituals have undergone this process. Every use of it that I've seen has failed.

Here's how I'm treating rituals: Instead of levels, each ritual falls into one of the three tiers. If you're a character of that tier, you can cast rituals of that tier and lower tiers. I think 4e's application of levels to rituals is a legacy thing, and I don't see any real advantage to sticking with levels.

Isn't Linked Portal a little good for a 1st-level caster?

To be honest, I don't think any monetary cost will make rituals accessible. People get scared of paying costs that they need for magic items. Maybe using inherent bonuses will relieve this fear. Otherwise they'll avoid rituals like they do opportunity attacks. You've seen the dance that PCs do to avoid them before. They'll happily pay healing surge costs (since those aren't permanent costs). I don't think PoL's different wealth system will make much difference, and the proposed wealth system seems like it'll have PCs scrambling for the "big three" and not just the "big one". PCs don't spend money on "ale and hookers" either, and haven't since 3.x.

The list above has a lot of bardic rituals (bards can perform a few rituals per day at no component cost). Those that let you make or dissolve magic items are popular, because there's no extra cost that you would have to pay at a magic shop.

As a DM, I have NPCs use rituals frequently, but then they have a budget. Especially those that belong to an organization. (For instance, if you're being hunted by a diviner who works for the city watch, said wizard gets a certain amount of components per month.)

As a PC, I've used rituals, but usually don't have enough components to use them :( Often it's levels between visits to a city where I could buy components.
 
Last edited:

Ferghis

First Post
I've been wanting to put up a poll to see which rituals most posters consider the best ones for each level. I started putting together one of those google docs spreadsheet forms for it, since this is beyond Enworld forum polls. I got lazy and it's still half done. I'll see if I can get it finished this week.
 

C4

Explorer
I like the idea of consumables via rituals but I have to say that skills checks are one of the more fun things with 4th ed rituals IMO. I would be leery of giving that up. For one thing it makes ritual magic more variable. It also means that skills for casters are very important. Generally I think there should more interaction between the magic system and the skill system more generally.
I figured that removing more ritual skill checks would make rituals more appealing to characters without high stats in the appropriate abilities.

But fair enough; I don't really feel strongly about it either way.
 

C4

Explorer
Remove Affliction. It was designed before skill DCs were updated, and it's never been errata'd. None of the original rituals have undergone this process. Every use of it that I've seen has failed.
Oh, yeah, I noticed that when I converted RA and figured it must have been one of those math details that slipped thru the cracks after the 4e math framework got changed halfway thru devolopment. Anyway, RA's level-dependent penalty happens to exactly match PoL's math framework, so I didn't even have to tweak it!

Isn't Linked Portal a little good for a 1st-level caster?
'Good' is a relative term for a ritual. Unless there's a similar but less useful ritual available at the same level, there's no objective way to measure the ritual's goodness.

But in any case, someone on rpgnet suggested 6 ritual tiers, rather than 3, and that seems reasonable to me. Portal rituals could start at tier 3, and go up from there.

To be honest, I don't think any monetary cost will make rituals accessible. People get scared of paying costs that they need for magic items. Maybe using inherent bonuses will relieve this fear. Otherwise they'll avoid rituals like they do opportunity attacks. You've seen the dance that PCs do to avoid them before. They'll happily pay healing surge costs (since those aren't permanent costs). I don't think PoL's different wealth system will make much difference, and the proposed wealth system seems like it'll have PCs scrambling for the "big three" and not just the "big one". PCs don't spend money on "ale and hookers" either, and haven't since 3.x.
Maybe I should have mentioned in the OP that there are no +X items in PoL, and because of the relative difference in prices, 'saving up' for a permanent item isn't really feasible. Unless maybe a PC saves every copper until he can buy an extra permanent item at 30th level. Maybe.

I can't put my finger on why, but replacing gp costs with surge costs feels...exploitable. I don't have anything specific against the idea, so...convince me, I guess?
 

C4

Explorer
I've been wanting to put up a poll to see which rituals most posters consider the best ones for each level. I started putting together one of those google docs spreadsheet forms for it, since this is beyond Enworld forum polls. I got lazy and it's still half done. I'll see if I can get it finished this week.
I'll be interested to find which ones get the most votes!
 

Maybe I should have mentioned in the OP that there are no +X items in PoL, and because of the relative difference in prices, 'saving up' for a permanent item isn't really feasible. Unless maybe a PC saves every copper until he can buy an extra permanent item at 30th level. Maybe.

I can't put my finger on why, but replacing gp costs with surge costs feels...exploitable. I don't have anything specific against the idea, so...convince me, I guess?

What do PCs spend money on in PoL then? Maybe PCs would rather spend money on rituals than consumables, I don't know.
 

Ryujin

Legend
You might want to reconsider the idea of tier-based ritual casting. If you take a close look at them some rituals are very useful, but actually duplicate the ability of specific magic items. The Exodus Knife, for example.

If you're taking out skill rolls from rituals, then you'll have to raise the cost of casting them. If you don't, then you're removing a significant barrier to spamming certain rituals. You can also keep skill rolls but allow alternate skill use, which can eliminate the issue of the skill barrier.

Rather than thinking about what rituals are essential to the game I would tend to tack the opposite tack; which rituals have the capability to derail the game? Eliminate them and keep the rest. I was a rather heavy ritual user in our 4e campaign, but no one else seemed to care about them. The Cleric took Raise Dead and Remove Affliction, then left it at that. On the other hand I had 39 rituals in my books, by level 20, and used several in every session. Not all of them were used in 'classically appropriate' situations either.
 


Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top