[Points of Light] Durations, Durations, Durations!

[C4]

Though it probably wouldn't have a huge effect, I don't think your proposal would improve much except for simplifying tracking- but that, in itself, is a VERY worthy goal.

Yes, this is one of several big pushes I'm making to simplify tracking.

 

[Ferghis]

Haven't seen the perfect system yet, so I can't point "Like that", but I can say that I feel that Readying should be cleaned up to remove the ability to Ready to avoid Immediates (and sometimes OAs) from a target or defender or Free action attack limits (ex: Warlord uses War Master's Assault, then AP readies a Hail of Steel) or to minimize effects of conditions, like readying a charge for as soon as your turn ends and immobilize falls off. Or to maximize "end of target's next turn" stuff so it really last two rounds by making it trigger at the start of a target's turn. Even to potentially avoid some zone, terrain, etc "end your turn in" type stuff.

My players don't ready actions often, so I haven't encountered this quirk to be honest. It sounds very...irritating.

There's a simpler fix for some of these issues. I'm told the designers forbid immediate and opportunity actions on the character's own turn to avoid characters triggering them during their own turns. As things are, the only way I see that to actually happen is via dominating powers, which probably need some clarification or fixes, depending on how you see it working. I'm in a bit of a rush now, but if that potential to chain, for example, OAs off of dominating powers is removed, it's perfectly okay to allow immediate and opportunity actions during your turn. That would make it impossible to ready actions to avoid OAs.

 

[C4]

There's a simpler fix for some of these issues. I'm told the designers forbid immediate and opportunity actions on the character's own turn to avoid characters triggering them during their own turns.

This seems like a totally reasonable fix; in fact my group never even considered using triggered actions on our own turns.

Would this solve your issues, Keterys?

 

[Ferghis]

My houserule has been:

Immediate and Opportunity actions can be used during the character's own turn, but cannot be triggered off of that same player's actions. For example, while a character can order a dominated enemy to undertake an action that would draw an Opportunity Attack on the character's own turn, that character cannot deliver that Opportunity Attack, because the player would be in control of triggering the Opportunity attack.

 

[the Jester]

There's a simpler fix for some of these issues. I'm told the designers forbid immediate and opportunity actions on the character's own turn to avoid characters triggering them during their own turns. As things are, the only way I see that to actually happen is via dominating powers, which probably need some clarification or fixes, depending on how you see it working. I'm in a bit of a rush now, but if that potential to chain, for example, OAs off of dominating powers is removed, it's perfectly okay to allow immediate and opportunity actions during your turn. That would make it impossible to ready actions to avoid OAs.

You already can't take immediate and opportunity actions during your turn by the RAW.

Immediate Actions:

...Someone Else's Turn: A creature cannot take an immediate action on its own turn.

Opportunity Actions:

...Someone Else's Turn: A creature cannot take an opportunity action on its own turn.

I can say that I feel that Readying should be cleaned up to remove the ability to
Ready to avoid Immediates (and sometimes OAs) from a target or defender or Free action attack limits (ex: Warlord uses War Master's Assault, then AP readies a Hail of Steel)
or to minimize effects of conditions, like readying a charge for as soon as your turn ends and immobilize falls off.

I'm not sure this works by the RAW anyhow, although a closer look indicates that the rules I'm citing seem to be written for delaying, not readying. But I've always applied them to both.

End of Your Turn: You don't have a normal end of your turn. Instead, the things you do at the end of your turn happen at two separate times....

End Harmful Effects After You Act: After you return to the initiative order and take your actions, end effects that last until the end of your turn and are that are harmful to you.... You can't avoid a harmful effect by delaying it.

I've always interpreted that last line to apply to similar shenanigans relying on the Ready action. EDIT: My interpretation relies on reading that last use of the word "delaying" in its common use sense, not its game lingo sense.

 

[keterys]

Yeah, the fact that creatures can't take OAs and immediates on their own turn is part of how you exploit things.

For example, let's say you have Defendarr who has a monster marked, and his immediate will trash the monster. The monster can ready to attack on the defender's turn, and he can't use an immediate in response.

Plus the example I already gave of using two powers that grant free action attacks, readying one to avoid the limit of one free action attack per turn.

The Jester - those are just the rules for Delaying, they do not apply to Readying. Doing so could potentially address some aspects of what I'm describing, yes.

Readying does so much fiddly stuff, and people _still_ try to use it pre-combat for situations which just fall down to "now roll initiative - no, your readied actions don't go off and their readied actions don't go off. You just roll initiative and play the game" - the basic question I have is - why can't people just delay, instead of readying?

The only real game requiring reason I can think of are flyby attacking style enemies, where you need to ready an attack for when they're briefly in range. I guess that is a real thing.

 

[Ferghis]

You already can't take immediate and opportunity actions during your turn by the RAW.

Yes, we agree on that. The post of mine that you quoted was addressing the objective of that rule (or at least trying to), and one possible simplification in that game design area.

 

[the Jester]

Yeah, the fact that creatures can't take OAs and immediates on their own turn is part of how you exploit things.

For example, let's say you have Defendarr who has a monster marked, and his immediate will trash the monster. The monster can ready to attack on the defender's turn, and he can't use an immediate in response.

This is a good example. Hmm... I guess being strict about what constitutes a "perceivable trigger" is a step in the right direction; if the marked bad guy readies his attack for "when the guy marking me attacks," I could see it, but I wouldn't allow "when the fighter starts his turn" as a trigger, personally. But it's still easy enough to get around.

I guess part of the problem is that you can still get the rest of your turn before you ready. The only cost to readying an action is that you have to wait for the perfect moment. Perhaps if you only got to ready the one action... I dunno.

The Jester - those are just the rules for Delaying, they do not apply to Readying. Doing so could potentially address some aspects of what I'm describing, yes.

Right- I noted that myself, and that my interpretation relies on interpreting that use of the word "delaying" in the last line I quoted as applying to more than just the delay action. But I've applied that rule to the ready action, too, since day 1, and it has definitely reduced abuse- there have been several times over the years when I've had to remind people that they can't wait out a condition that way. I recommend this as a house rule, and this is a good example of an instance where I'm going to tell the group we've been doing it wrong (by RAW) but that we're going to keep doing it wrong.

Readying does so much fiddly stuff, and people _still_ try to use it pre-combat for situations which just fall down to "now roll initiative - no, your readied actions don't go off and their readied actions don't go off. You just roll initiative and play the game" - the basic question I have is - why can't people just delay, instead of readying?

I apply the same reasoning here- both ready and delay are in-combat, initiative-reliant actions, and you can't take such an action without being on initiative... and initiative doesn't happen until combat breaks out.

The only real game requiring reason I can think of are flyby attacking style enemies, where you need to ready an attack for when they're briefly in range. I guess that is a real thing.

Yeah, highly-mobile foes, those you can't see (until they break stealth/invisibility/whatever), etc. There are several cases where the delay action just doesn't do it. The classic example (interrupting an enemy spellcaster) doesn't apply in 4e, of course, but that's traditionally been the main reason to ready an action (that I've seen, anyhow).

 

[keterys]

Well, the breaking stealth thing, delay usually works - but, true, it's the same principle. I'll have to ponder it some, cause it's good to have an option for the neener-neener flyby style foes

 

[Balesir]

What about simply defining that, while a readied action is being taken, it counts as the readied action taker's turn, not the current initiative character's turn. OK, you'd need more elegant wording than that, but hopefully you get what I mean.

Edit: P.S. Dominated creatures, I believe, act on their own turn (as determined by their dominator), not on their dominator's turn.