Poisons? You're kidding right?

[DSRilk]

First, the skill challenge concept from Dausuul... very interesting! I might have to use that wholesale or at least mess with the concept.

Second, poisons are effectively at-will powers that cost money, so they can't (for game balance reasons) be that powerful. Basically, one standard action (to apply the poison) gives you a free secondary attack. In other words, one standard action gives you an attack. Given that the poisons pretty much all have special effects (most of which are found in the equivalent of encounter or daily powers), I think they're pretty well balanced.

That said, I can certainly see from a "real-world" perspective how you might want poisons to last longer. My first instinct says you could create poisons that instead of (save ends) state (3 saves end) or (save reduces damage by 5; when damage is reduced to 0, all other effects end). For things like drugs or long-term poisons you could have:

5 damage each hour (save ends, save after first exposure and each hour thereafter)

Though I think it would be more interesting to have effects like:

Cannot spend a healing surge or cannot spend more than one healing surge per day.

I think the mechanic presented is limited, but easily extensible.

 

[phloog]

When you have your players hit with poison do you want them to :

a) drop down dead

b) wonder the countryside wracked with pain, coughing up blood, asking questions of everybody they meet until they find an apothecary that tells them their one and only cure lies in a hidden valley and can only be harvested under the light of a full moon by a virgin with a left handed sickle.

One's a game effect and one's a story effect.

That's a fine example, thanks. Now to go back to what I believe should be the strong links between the two.

Neither of your scenarios work with this 'deadly' poison. They don't die instantly, and it is very likely that they'll just be inconvenienced by the poison, unless (as I mentioned) they are also currently being stomped on by a giant. They don't stomp through the countryside seeking a cure because it's probably worn off by the time they get done with the fight....it's scary IN the fight, but not outside of combat...once again it seems that the drama is only applicable to the grid.

The idea of poison SHOULD frighten characters/players - it should make them worry that their character could go 'poof'...the mechanical effect should support some heightened drama. This relatively small amount of damage, which ends on a single save (with the new 10+ saves, no less), doesn't feel like a poison that would inspire fear...poison should inspire fear...not necessarily insta-kill, but some middle ground between save-or-die and this sort of 'oh...got poisoned...this might bother me for a bit, but once this fight ends should be no big deal'.

The disease option sounds interesting, because it COULD lead to the story effect you gave.

 

[Zurai]

There's nothing in the rules that prevents you from using the disease model for slow-acting poisons. It's just a label.

The poisons currently in game are fast-acting, combat-suitable poisons. Just like with every other instance, they leave non-combat stuff up to the DM, because the DM ends up making it all up anyway.

You're also forgetting/intentionally ignoring that this particular poison comes from pit fiends. That means pit fiends naturally use it in battle. Their poisoned weapon doesn't run out of poison. Every time they sting you, you take 15 ongoing damage and are weakened. If they increased the viciousness of pit toxin, they'd have to nerf pit fiends in some other way, and eventually it'd get to the point where a monster that should be one of the most feared in the game is a one-trick pony: negate it's tail and it's a pushover. The way things are now, it's tail is a threat but it can actually threaten you other ways, too.

 

[FadedC]

Player: Nope. Been poisoned lots of times. I just shrug them off. Maybe burn an extra healing surge, but I have plenty. That guy should have spent his money on a flaming sword - that might have made me rethink my tactics.

Funny that you say that, when the only effect high level flaming swords have is that once a day you can do 15 ongoing damage with one. The poison is doing that and adding a nasty status effect.

 

[silentounce]

How about this:

SKILL CHALLENGE: POISON
At the DM's option, any poison-based attack can have an an aftereffect. Every character who was hit by the poison-based attack is subject to this aftereffect after the encounter ends. The level of the skill challenge is usually equal to the level of the monster or trap whose attack triggered it. The DM must decide what type the poison is and how quickly it acts (fast-acting, normal, or slow-acting).

Victims cannot recover healing surges as long as this skill challenge continues.

Complexity: 2 (6 successes/3 failures)

PRIMARY SKILLS: Endurance, Heal, Nature, History
Endurance (moderate DCs): Once per minute (fast-acting poisons), once per hour (normal poisons), or once per day (slow-acting poisons), the poison victim must spend a healing surge and make an Endurance check to withstand the poison. Only failures on these checks count toward failing the challenge. If the victim has no more healing surges left, she fails automatically.
Heal (moderate DCs): Another character can make a Heal check to purge the poison. Failure costs the victim a healing surge.
Nature (moderate DCs): A character can make a Nature check to recollect some detail of the poison which can aid a healer. On a successful check, the difficulty of Heal checks is reduced to easy. This can only be attempted once.
History (hard DCs): A character can recollect an instance of an important personage being subject to this poison and what was done to treat it. On a successful check, the difficulty of Heal checks is reduced to easy. This can only be attempted once.

SUCCESS: The victim recovers from the poison with no significant ill effects.
FAILURE: The victim suffers one of the following effects:
Weakening Poison: The victim is weakened for 1 day. Every day, she can make an Endurance check at moderate DC, and one other character can attempt a Heal check at moderate DC. Success on either check results in recovery.
Hallucinogenic Poison: The victim is dazed for 1 day. Every day, she can make an Endurance check at moderate DC, and one other character can attempt a Heal check at moderate DC. Success on either check results in recovery.
Paralytic Poison: The victim is paralyzed for 1 hour. Every hour, she can make an Endurance check at moderate DC, and one other character can attempt a Heal check at moderate DC. Success on either check results in recovery.
Lethal Poison: The victim dies.

That would be great if skill challenges weren't totally broken. No, seriously, that's some good work. But until a fix for the sc system comes out that doesn't make PCs fail the majority of the time, it's pretty useless unless you want your PCs to remain poisoned for long periods of time.

 

[IceFractal]

a) drop down dead
b) wonder the countryside wracked with pain, coughing up blood, asking questions of everybody they meet until they find an apothecary that tells them their one and only cure lies in a hidden valley and can only be harvested under the light of a full moon by a virgin with a left handed sickle.

c) The poison wears off in 12-30 seconds, probably dealing less than a healing surge worth of damage. By the next day, the poison will be long forgotten.


If you want to handwave that NPCs somehow die from poison, that's fine. But don't expect PCs to be intimidated by it unless it actually does something intimidating. And if it does something intimidating when used against the PCs, and then they manage to get some, they're going to damn well expect it to do the intimidating thing against their foes.

That's where "foes don't have to play by PC rules" breaks down. If you give, say, a demon a custom ability, that's fine, there's no reason the players should expect to have that ability. But if you give a normal assassin an ability that comes from an item, and the players capture that item ... then they either get the ability, or you've broken suspension of disbelief and pissed off your players.

 

[Silverblade The Ench]

Personally I think Pit Fiend venom *POISON VIAL* as we have here, should not be considered to be the same as that of the actual pit fiend sting.
This is a distilled essence highly purified, mega-bloody-nasty alchemical distilation. Hence the cost. Probably requires actual stinger from a pit fiend, thus the cost (needs a dead pit fiend, how much does that cost, eh? hehe)

Give this poison a -5 save, and a Weakened, permanently, until cured effect (and that would require Cleric power "Purify" or the like as there's no Neutralize Poison in 4th ed).
So it should be renamed "Pit Fiend Sting Extract"

And make the normal poison from a Pit Fiend, using the current damage as it is in the DMG, cost only 1/10th the amount.

Problem solved?

PS, for 3rd ed, I always increased poisons' DC at higher level, based on rough logic and appropriateness.