D&D 5E Poll: What is a Level 1 PC?

[pemerton]

Rolemaster statted a normalshrew, gawd knows why they bothered. However, it was possible (not sure of the odds) for this shrew to attack and kill an armed human.

This reminds me of an epic badger hunt back in the early days of my first Rolemaster campaign! Good DB, good hits, ridiculously hard for even 5th level PCs to take down.

 

[S'mon]

There's another angle here to consider:

One of the great things about D&D is that the average player can usually, without too much of a stretch, visualise him/herself as a very low-level person in the game world. The animal stats kind of reflect this - the real me, for example, would be in mighty tough if I had to take on a wolf by myself; and it might very well kill me. The same holds true for a commoner (and should for a raw 1st-level type) in the game; giving a certain connection between you and your character.

The stats may reflect the player's perception of how threatening normal animals are, but unless the player is 8 years old I don't think they are normally a realistic reflection of the animal's actual threat level to him/her (exception for a few very large predators - lions and tigers, and maybe grizzly bears). For instance, I remember reading about an American woman whose family was attacked by a cougar while hiking; the other woman with them and the children fled while she grappled it. When rescuers eventually reached her they found both woman and cougar dead; they had killed each other. But D&D stats would typically let a cougar kill the woman with ease, and the rest of her family too. It's similar with canines, wolves that individually are IRL much less dangerous than a big cat.
Comparing to animals, D&D stats tend to treat the 1st level Fighter PC in scale & shield as more fragile and less capable than the real-world unarmoured, unarmed, untrained mother protecting her children.

 

[Hussar]

Just to add to that. If I'm in plate mail, with a sword, I'm feeling pretty darn confident that I can kill a dog or a wolf without taking too much of a beating. Heck, even in chainmail, I should be in pretty good shape.

Only thing is, D&D doesn't model that at all. You are just as killable in your birthday suit as full plate, just harder to "hit". Of course, this is an aspect of the game most people just gloss over anyway because, to be honest, it's not a whole lot of fun. Or at least not as quick and dirty as HP.

Think about it this way. A wild boar, in any version of D&D, can and will toast most 1st level characters. Yet, we hunted wild boars with spears all the time. And it didn't take a bunch of guys whittling down the boar. It took one guy with the proper tool - a boar spear.

Thing is, in D&D, that won't work. The boar is going to eat the hunter 9 times out of 10.

 

[S'mon]

Thing is, in D&D, that won't work. The boar is going to eat the hunter 9 times out of 10.

I hunted a wild boar in Pathfinder with my 1st level STR 14 Cleric using a longspear (1d8+3 2-handed), Readied action vs Charge to attack it at 10', followed by an Attack of Opportunity as it left the threatened square to engage me, by my count would have given me two attacks each at 2d8+6, with the boar taking a -2 AC penalty, before it could attack - likely enough to kill it.

I was pretty disappointed when it ran away instead of charging - I had to cast Entangle and then we whittled it down instead!

 

[Hussar]

I hunted a wild boar in Pathfinder with my 1st level STR 14 Cleric using a longspear (1d8+3 2-handed), Readied action vs Charge to attack it at 10', followed by an Attack of Opportunity as it left the threatened square to engage me, by my count would have given me two attacks each at 2d8+6, with the boar taking a -2 AC penalty, before it could attack - likely enough to kill it.

I was pretty disappointed when it ran away instead of charging - I had to cast Entangle and then we whittled it down instead!

The second attack wouldn't have been double damage, since the readied attack to set the spear had already occurred. But, even with 4d8+12=30 points on average, wouldn't have stopped it since it has ferocity and effectively 35 HP.

Probably would have won, but, we're talking about a PC. And, at a d8+3, it's attack back will virtually always kill an NPC commoner. The commoner hunter will almost always die vs the boar instead of being killed by a boar being a somewhat surprising result. Sure, boar hunting is dangerous, but, it was done pretty regularly. If you could expect to die about 50% of the time, I'm thinking that pork would be off the menu.

/edit on a side note - I HATE the readied vs charge mechanics in 3e. For precisely the reason you outlined. I used to play a polearm fighter that tried to do that all the time. Suddenly, no one ever charged the party. :'( Grr.

 

[JamesonCourage]

The second attack wouldn't have been double damage, since the readied attack to set the spear had already occurred. But, even with 4d8+12=30 points on average, wouldn't have stopped it since it has ferocity and effectively 35 HP.

Yep, all true. Good catch.

Probably would have won, but, we're talking about a PC. And, at a d8+3, it's attack back will virtually always kill an NPC commoner. The commoner hunter will almost always die vs the boar instead of being killed by a boar being a somewhat surprising result.

You're not wrong. A good argument to use PC classes for NPCs.

/edit on a side note - I HATE the readied vs charge mechanics in 3e. For precisely the reason you outlined. I used to play a polearm fighter that tried to do that all the time. Suddenly, no one ever charged the party. :'( Grr.

It probably wouldn't be such a bad option of their wasn't as much meta-decision making against your party. I even have a skill use in my game that lets you predict what people are planning at the moment ("you think he wants to take out the party archer" or the like), which could help predict charges. You just have to, you know, not purposefully screw your players As always, play what you like

 

[pemerton]

If I'm in plate mail, with a sword, I'm feeling pretty darn confident that I can kill a dog or a wolf without taking too much of a beating. Heck, even in chainmail, I should be in pretty good shape.

Only thing is, D&D doesn't model that at all.

1st ed AD&D had it's weapon vs armour rules, and it was always possible to apply the "open hand" adjustments to animals as well. Making armour pretty good against them.

Rolemaster reflects the difficult of cutting through metal without metal tools in its tables, too - the difference in effectiveness of claws vs armour compared to weapons vs armour is fairly reasonably captured.

 

[Obryn]

1st ed AD&D had it's weapon vs armour rules, and it was always possible to apply the "open hand" adjustments to animals as well. Making armour pretty good against them.

You're not supposed to use them at all vs. natural attacks.

-O

 

[Hussar]

You're not wrong. A good argument to use PC classes for NPCs.

That's the problem though. I don't think Joe Fisherman is really modeled as a fighter or rogue very well. Too much baggage. And, outside of those two classes, you don't really have any strictly mundane classes for PC's. Everyone else gets magic toys. Which plays all sorts of merry hell with world building.

And, IMO, this gets right to the root of the problem with classes and world building. Classes aren't really geared for world building. Classes, by and large, deal with the biggest mechanical element of the game - combat. And, for most NPC's, outside of interacting with PC's, it's just not needed.

 

[pemerton]

You're not supposed to use them at all vs. natural attacks.

I know, but it makes no sense at all that a housecat's claws are better at punching through full plate than Jet Li's fists!