Polymorph

[ashockney]

Ok, there is probably a post with 300 posts and 5,000 views on the subject, but I didn't see it, please point me in the right direction.

So, I've reviewed this spell, and I'm at a loss. How does one deal with:

A rogue polymorphed into a Hydra with multiple attacks, all adding sneak attack!
A fighter polymorphed into a giant, granting it a natural strength of up to 30!
A cleric polymorphed into a giant, then casting divine power/righteous might/divine favor?
A wizard polymorphed into a giant, then casting transformation?
The myriad of defenses provided by changing "types" - immunities, resistances, etc.

A buff spell of another color, of similiar level might grant a +2 or +4 to attack, hp, etc, for 1 round per level. This buff spell adds such to all abilities, and potentially more, for 1 min/lvl, and heals you in the process.

Is this simply a staple in your own campaigns, and must therefore be used by good guys and bad guys alike in an ever escalating war of polymorphers?

 

[Planesdragon]

So, I've reviewed this spell, and I'm at a loss. How does one deal with:

By the core rules, I'd say "badly." In an ideal game, any creature that can be polymorphed into would include a unique spell in its description -- so instead of a generic polymorph spell, you'd have a polymorph into stone giant, polymorph into hydra, and all the rest.

IMC, polymorph works simiarly to how alternate form works in Mindcraft. Your ability scores are adjusted by the creature's scores instead of replaced by them, and you suffer a penalty to all actions equal to the form's Level Adjustment--including effective caster level.

So, in essence, polymorph temporarily turns you into about the same as what you'd be if you were a monstrous PC of that type.


Beyond that, the biggest check against my players stacking magical bonuses is roleplaying--not every fighter likes being turned into a stone giant, and doing it too often could be cause for a Sanity check. Even those that don't mind changing shape tend to balk at thinking they ARE a stone giant, trapped in a puny human form.

 

[Thanee]

Well, we have house rules Polymorph to be a personal spell only, because it is a bit too tough as a buff spell (as was Polymorph Other in 3.0), when you stack it up with being a competent fighter (not a whimpy wizard - a polymorphed wizard becomes a decent fighter, a polymorphed fighter a machine of destruction ).

It's a very cool spell, but also one that easily can cause some balance problems.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Prism]

Anyone polymorphing into a creature not of their size will find it more difficult to use their weapon unless they have a spare of the correct size - weapons do not resize. Also most armour would meld with the new form often reducing AC. You could also rule that other items do not resize or are capable of being worn. All these things make it more difficult for the players

For example, the rogue in hydra form will lose his/her weapons, armour, most jewelry, clothing etc. The wizard in giant form may lose his/her spell component pouch attached to their belt, their backpack containing scrolls and wands etc

Creatures of medium size are much more balanced usually - although there are some exceptions

Dispel magic should be reasonably common place when going up against buffed and ploymorphed opponents

 

[ashockney]

Wow, and yikes.

So, thus far, based on responses. I'm left with eliminating it, house ruling it, or just playing polymorph wars with my own polymorphs and dispel magics.

Prism, you make a good point about gear. I've heard about that before, and also recall the response being "take it all off" then polymorph, then throw it back on. Fun, fun, fun. Again, house rule city, perhaps as a means of maintaining some degree of "control".

The simplest means of house rule sounds like: you retain your hp and your saving throws, but you are otherwise the "creature" for attack, damage, and type and number of attacks, and AC. Your old feats, class abilities, and magic items all get "chucked" with the polymorph. Still a cool buff spell, and particularly more useful as a self buff if you want to wander into combat.

If you go this route, how about buff spells you have already cast? Bull's/Bear's/Cat's? Prayer, Rage, Greater Heroism, etc?

Others thoughts and uses?

 

[glass]

I don't think Polymorph is as allpowerfull as you are making out. It is certainly a strong spell, but all the scenarios you have raised have downsides for the polymorphee...

A rogue polymorphed into a Hydra with multiple attacks, all adding sneak attack!

And being in melee with lots of creatures with rogue hitpoints and a craptacular AC.

A fighter polymorphed into a giant, granting it a natural strength of up to 30!

30 Str isn't really all that remarkable for a high level fighter.

A cleric polymorphed into a giant, then casting divine power/righteous might/divine favor?

I think that that is more a problem with the cleric's self buffs than with polymorph, personally, and again buffing takes time.

A wizard polymorphed into a giant, then casting transformation?

Has just spent two rounds turning himself into a melee machine despite having crappy hp and (presumably) no fighter type feats, IMHO.

The myriad of defenses provided by changing "types" - immunities, resistances, etc.

Now with this one I do agree. Opens up several cans of worms, and was one of the worst changes in 3.5.


glass.

 

[glass]

Prism, you make a good point about gear. I've heard about that before, and also recall the response being "take it all off" then polymorph, then throw it back on. Fun, fun, fun. Again, house rule city, perhaps as a means of maintaining some degree of "control".

No houserule required. The DMG says something along the line of 'equipment should resize to fit or be easily adjustable'. It is talking about making found items usable to characters, not compensating for sudden size changes in characters.

IOW, by the time that belt of giant strength has expanded to fit a storm giant, the battle is long since over and he's been standing there doing nothing except trying to get his clothes back on.

The simplest means of house rule sounds like: you retain your hp and your saving throws, but you are otherwise the "creature" for attack, damage, and type and number of attacks, and AC. Your old feats, class abilities, and magic items all get "chucked" with the polymorph. Still a cool buff spell, and particularly more useful as a self buff if you want to wander into combat.

Are you thinking of giving the creature's typical feats? If so, then that probably makes the spell stronger if anything. Or were you just thinking of the polymorphee having no feats at all? And no class abilities either? Sounds very weak to me.


glass.

 

[Testament]

A rogue polymorphed into a Hydra with multiple attacks, all adding sneak attack!

Obviously your Rogue is Large to begin with, otherwise Hydras, as huge creatures are out of range for medium. And if he's used Permanency on an Enlarge Person to become Large, then a targeted dispel deals with it.

A fighter polymorphed into a giant, granting it a natural strength of up to 30!

Hope he's got a large weapon, otherwise he's taking the penalties, and 30 isn't all that impressive for an even moderately optimised fighter at high levels. At any rate, he's so high level before they have enough HD to go Giant that it shouldn't be an issue.

A cleric polymorphed into a giant, then casting divine power/righteous might/divine favor?

1. He's wasting rounds buffing. And at the levels when you can reach Giants (see above), those rounds are resulting in party casualties.
2. More an issue with Clerical buffs of uberness than Polymorph if they've got them preloaded, or worse, Divine Metamagic (Persistent).

A wizard polymorphed into a giant, then casting transformation?

With only moderately increased HP, owing to the d4 HD of a wizard, even with the con boost. And a gamma BAB means that they're still rubbish in combat.

The myriad of defenses provided by changing "types" - immunities, resistances, etc.

OK, you win there.

Is this simply a staple in your own campaigns, and must therefore be used by good guys and bad guys alike in an ever escalating war of polymorphers?

Yeah, the goose and gander law sorts most things out.

 

[Bad Paper]

I once made a little database to "idealize" (munchkin) Polymorph for each caster level/hit die. Man, gray renders do a LOT of damage!

In the right circumstances, Polymorph is the wickedest spell in the game. Luckily, there are DMs who know how to handle it. As illustrated in this discussion, I don't think Ashockney's concerns are that serious. And even for the immunities-granted issue, think of it this way: what if there were a fifth-level spell that granted you another type (e.g. giant)? Now, what if you nerfed it a little bit to give you all the bad/inconvenient things that go with the fourth-level Polymorph? I think that this is a balanced spell, as it's really really good, but not a must-have.

 

[ashockney]

I talked to the party at this week's game, and they agreed on the following solution:

Limit Polymorph to your HP, SAVES and the "monster's" attacks, damage, and armor class.

What about in your campaign?