Portable Hole Question

[Storme]

I used to do this VERY frequently in AD&D. I wonder if in 3.5 there would be any problem with this.

Okay...the mission is over so, the wizard lays down his portale hole and climbs inside. His quasit familiar then rolls it up and picks it up. Meanwhile, inside the Hole, the wizard uses his Mirror of Mental Prowess which is propped up in the corner to open a portal in front of his familiar just outside, and the familiar slips through (now the wizard, the familiar...and the rolled up portable hole) are inside the Hole. He then conjures up an image of his castle and he and his familiar step through and are home.

Now, I've never considered this to be a problem...nor have any of my DM's (25 years ago) since the portable hole is a pocket dimension and the location of the entrance is unimportant. None of us have ever considered this to be similar to putting a hole insde a bag of holding or visa versa.

Is there anything in the current rules that might prevent this?


Storme

 

[Vurt]

So what happens if someone unfurls the rolled up portable hole INSIDE the Hole?

I've personally always considered the rolled up magic item to be part of the Hole itself, and not merely a key to allow its opening. I'd simply never allow it to cross the boundary into the inside of the Hole, in the interest of defeating the paradox that it introduces.

 

[XCorvis]

Is there anything in the current rules that might prevent this?

Probably not, but read the FAQ just in case. There might be some issues opening a portal, especially a transdimensional portal, from inside an extradimensional space.

As a DM, I wouldn't be very keen on this. IMO, it's a convoluted loophole that solves a problem that doesn't really need solving. If you've got a Mirror of Mental Prowess, you can cast Greater Teleport and Plane Shift or buy an item that can. But if your DM is cool with it, have fun.

 

[mvincent]

I wonder if in 3.5 there would be any problem with this.
<snip>
inside the Hole, the wizard uses his Mirror of Mental Prowess which is propped up in the corner to open a portal in front of his familiar just outside, and the familiar slips through (now the wizard, the familiar...and the rolled up portable hole) are inside the Hole.

Excellent idea. Here is some research:

From the Rules of the Game:
"Extradimensional spaces are notorious for creating spectacular and dangerous effects when placed inside each other; however, the dangers can be somewhat overrated. One bag of holding can be placed safely inside another (of course, the first bag's weight counts against what the second bag can hold). Likewise, one portable hole can be placed safely inside another."

However, from the 3.0 FAQ (and written by the same author above):
“It’s a general rule that you can’t mix items containing nondimensional or extradimensional spaces (things that are bigger inside than out) with each other or with portable holes. Such combinations tend to strain the fabric of the cosmos. Putting one bag of holding within another is just like putting the bag into a portable hole. Items that function like bags of holding, such as Heward’s handy haversacks, cause the same mishaps when mishandled."

Also (for reference) from the 2ed guide to High-level campaigns, section on magic items:
"Extradimensional Spaces: These items tend to produce spectacular effects when one is placed within another. The following items contain extradimensional spaces: bag of holding, bag of transmuting, flatbox†, girdle of many pouches, Heward’s handy haversack, portable hole, and pouch of accessibility. The following spells produce extradimensional spaces: extradimensional pocket†, Mordenkainen’s magnificent mansion, and rope trick.

In most instances, placing one extradimensional space inside another opens a rift to the Astral Plane, casting both the items and their contents through the rift. The items and anything contained within them are scattered randomly in the infinite depths of the Astral Plane."

A DM could use any interpretation, so best to ask him first. Also, you aren't putting one portable hole inside another here, but rather putting it inside itself... so it's anyone's guess.

 

[Deset Gled]

I would think that this is a great way to trap yourself in the portable hole with no way out. If the wizard walks out of the whole he came in through, he would now come out of the entrance, which is still inside the hole. If the wizard tried to put anything through the hole he's holding, it comes through the hole he walked through. Extra-dimensional travel would be the only way out, although you could carry the portable hole with you again.

Come to think of it, this could be a good way to hide a phylactery (leave the hole behind when you teleport out, it's now a pocket dimension with no entrance). It also gives me flashbacks to Cube^2: Hypercube.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Excellent idea. Here is some research:

Don't forget:

3E PHB, Rope Trick: Note: Creating an extradimensional space within or taking an extradimensional space into an existing extradimensional space is hazardous.

3E FAQ: Spells that produce their own extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, pose no danger to occupants who may be using portable holes, bags of holding, and the like.

3.5 PHB, Rope Trick: Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.

It's hazardous, and we refer to it in the spell description, but in the FAQ we'll say there's no danger.

-Hyp.

 

[mvincent]

Don't forget:

3E PHB, Rope Trick: Note: Creating an extradimensional space within or taking an extradimensional space into an existing extradimensional space is hazardous.

From the Rules of the Game:
"The rope trick spell description makes a passing mention of "hazards" associated with placing one extradimensional space inside another, but gives no details. (See the rope trick excerpt.)

I recommend that you ignore this reference. Your campaign won't be improved if rope trick effects implode when someone carries a bag of holding or portable hole inside. A Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion should likewise prove benign if someone carries a bag of holding or portable hole inside."

From the 3.0 FAQ:
“Note you can freely go plane hopping with portable holes, bags of holding, and the like. Spells that produce their own extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, pose no danger to occupants who may be using portable holes, bags of holding, and the like."

It appears that the writer of rope trick did not confer with all other writer's before adding this text (actually... I believe it is just cut/paste text from 2nd ed., where this ominous reminder was apropos). I don't believe that the rope trick description has primacy for these sorts of interactions (as it doesn't provide any actual details), but a DM could still well rule that the mixings act like they did in 2nd ed (using this text as support). Best to ask.

 

[Storme]

Interesting how the restictions lighten the further forward through D&D history you go. I suspect that has something to do with what we know about space/time. From what little I know about physics I would personally see no problem with a "bag within a bag" scenario...but if you turn one inside out...your reflex save won't save you.

Most have addressed putting a portable hole into a portable hole. That is not the case. there is only one hole. The entry point is moving. Rolling up the hole scroll and stepping into the Hole does not create a second portable hole. If it did, I'd have an infinite number of holes, just by rolling it up, turning around and opening it again.

I agree that it would be a good way of getting trapped inside one though. Opening the hole, inside your hole would just open a door in the ceiling and the floor with you looking down at yourself add infinitum exactly like a mirror in a mirror view. Of course, I can't think of any way to get the "scroll" into the hole without the means of getting out yourself. One way would be to lead a prisioner into one, drop the hole onto the floor and plane shift to the astral plane, but in any case they would die in a hour (unless they are unliving)...but I can think of many more nasty prisons that would be just as or more effective against an undead or construct than to throw away a perfectly good Hole.

Thanks for the input everyone. Seems that since we're using 3.5 then it's a non-issue.

 

[Infiniti2000]

From what little I know of physics I would personally see a problem with the existence of a bag of holding in the first place!

So, let's just leave physics out of it and go with whatever makes the game fun.

 

[Thurbane]

Sounds like a painting by MC Escher.