Possibly Silly Locate Object Question

[Metallian]

After a few incidents where a PC cast "Locate Object" and then rode around a city on a fast character's back/flew around the city, I lamented that Locate Object should really be a one-time thing that works within an area...not something that travels with the caster.

One of my players then pointed out that...oops, maybe it doesn't travel with the caster. It is not, after all, an "emanation" spell.

So, how does it work?

Does the center of the area of effect remain "rooted" to the spot where the caster was standing at the time of casting?

Do you know the "general" direction of items that are outside the area of the spell?

Why does it have both a "Range" and an "Area" if the circle is always centered on the caster?

The Metallian

 

[SubMensa]

Locate Object
Divination
Level: Brd 2, Clr 3, Sor/Wiz 2, Travel 2
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: Circle, centered on you, with a radius of 400 ft. + 40 ft./level
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

Given the spell description, i would rule that it does indeed travel with the caster because the area of effect is "Centered on you".

 

[Metallian]

Given the spell description, i would rule that it does indeed travel with the caster because the area of effect is "Centered on you".

That's what we've been assuming, too. But "Magic Circle Against Evil," for example, is described as an "emanation" whereas this is not. The magic chapter does not seem to cover "circles" in the part about Areas or Ranges.


And it is really powerful for such a low-level spell that way. You can find anything in a city if you can fly or otherwise move quickly.

The Metallian

 

[Liquidsabre]

How is the spell really powerful? For it to work at all on unique items you have to have viewed them first, for specific items you have to have an accurate mental picture or the spell fails, and for general items the spell simply locates the nearest one within range.

If other spells and abilities are employed to make better use of the spell (such as fly, etc.) this doesn't make the spell itself more powerful than it already is. You are simply using multiple spells/abilities to take better advantage of the spell. That's synergy and using up a greater amount of resources for greater gain. That's balance my friend.

 

[Metallian]

How is the spell really powerful? For it to work at all on unique items you have to have viewed them first, for specific items you have to have an accurate mental picture or the spell fails, and for general items the spell simply locates the nearest one within range.

If other spells and abilities are employed to make better use of the spell (such as fly, etc.) this doesn't make the spell itself more powerful than it already is. You are simply using multiple spells/abilities to take better advantage of the spell. That's synergy and using up a greater amount of resources for greater gain. That's balance my friend.

Well, it does mean that the local Cleric or Wizard (you don't have to be all that high level to cast it) can rather trivially track down any important (and therefore one for which "accurate descriptions" are available) stolen item within a city. Nothing important would ever be successfully stolen unless the thief intended to leave the city quickly...though I suppose he could just put it in a lead-lined box.

Worse, however, is that you can trivially track down people you've met by scanning for some item thet they frequently wear on their person. A special weapon or piece of jewelry, for example. Why bother making Gather Information checks or conducting detective work? How does a dashing masked hero or assassin of any prominece remain hidden when two 3rd level spells can find his signature weapon within an hour?

This is not just about "hosing the PCs," either. The DM has to explain why the PCs enemies are not constantly using this technique to harass them.

The Metallian

 

[Voadam]

I don't read it as allowing you to detect something out of the range.

Locate Object
Divination
Level: Brd 2, Clr 3, Sor/Wiz 2, Travel 2
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: Circle, centered on you, with a radius of 400 ft. + 40 ft./level
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
You sense the direction of a well-known or clearly visualized object. You can search for general items, in which case you locate the nearest one of its kind if more than one is within range. Attempting to find a certain item requires a specific and accurate mental image; if the image is not close enough to the actual object, the spell fails. You cannot specify a unique item unless you have observed that particular item firsthand (not through divination).
The spell is blocked by even a thin sheet of lead. Creatures cannot be found by this spell. Polymorph any object fools it.
Arcane Focus: A forked twig.

 

[Voadam]

Well, it does mean that the local Cleric or Wizard (you don't have to be all that high level to cast it) can rather trivially track down any important (and therefore one for which "accurate descriptions" are available) stolen item within a city. Nothing important would ever be successfully stolen unless the thief intended to leave the city quickly...though I suppose he could just put it in a lead-lined box.

Worse, however, is that you can trivially track down people you've met by scanning for some item thet they frequently wear on their person. A special weapon or piece of jewelry, for example. Why bother making Gather Information checks or conducting detective work? How does a dashing masked hero or assassin of any prominece remain hidden when two 3rd level spells can find his signature weapon within an hour?

This is not just about "hosing the PCs," either. The DM has to explain why the PCs enemies are not constantly using this technique to harass them.

The Metallian

1 the caster must have seen the item first hand, not just have an accurate description if it is something like a specific unique piece of jewelry or painting that is stolen. Calling in a caster after the fact you must rely on them looking for "A bracelet" or "a painting" and you will get a bunch of false positives.

Assassins normally don't walk around openly with their signature weapons out, they normally don't let people see their weapons unless they are attacking them.

However yes, if a spellcaster sees you with a unique item they can track that item with this low level spell.

Info gathering can get you more than where are they right now. For instance background info on the person.

Detective work tells you more than just where somebody is holed up or where the murder weapon is, usually how something was done and sometimes even why.

 

[Philip]

Well, it does mean that the local Cleric or Wizard (you don't have to be all that high level to cast it) can rather trivially track down any important (and therefore one for which "accurate descriptions" are available) stolen item within a city. Nothing important would ever be successfully stolen unless the thief intended to leave the city quickly...though I suppose he could just put it in a lead-lined box.

Worse, however, is that you can trivially track down people you've met by scanning for some item thet they frequently wear on their person. A special weapon or piece of jewelry, for example. Why bother making Gather Information checks or conducting detective work? How does a dashing masked hero or assassin of any prominece remain hidden when two 3rd level spells can find his signature weapon within an hour?

This is not just about "hosing the PCs," either. The DM has to explain why the PCs enemies are not constantly using this technique to harass them.

The Metallian

Well, non-trivial people stealing non-trivial things should plan for this to happen.

Just compare it to DNA identification or video surveillance nowadays. Just the fact that they exists doesn't stop people from committing crimes, it only changes the way how people commit them.

After a famous assassins hides his signature weapon in the manor of a highly ranked noble what happens? Does the lowly cleric accuse the noble of harboring or -being- the assassin. Does the lowly cleric turn the manor upside down searching for the weapon? Does the noble get falsely accused, condemned and punished for the assassin's crimes, only to have the assassin reveal later on that it was actually he. Does the lowly cleric get kicked out of the church hierarchy for harassing the noble?

Locate Object as a failsafe tool against crime would quickly become suspect.

Using lead-lined boxes to hide items would be just as common as wearing gloves to prevent leaving fingerprints.

 

[Metallian]

After a famous assassins hides his signature weapon in the manor of a highly ranked noble what happens? Does the lowly cleric accuse the noble of harboring or -being- the assassin. Does the lowly cleric turn the manor upside down searching for the weapon? Does the noble get falsely accused, condemned and punished for the assassin's crimes, only to have the assassin reveal later on that it was actually he. Does the lowly cleric get kicked out of the church hierarchy for harassing the noble?

Hee hee, actually, I was planning to do something very much like this IMC.


Still, I didn't mean to get sidetracked into a discussion about whether it's too powerful or not. I was wondering:

- Does the center of the area of effect remain "rooted" to the spot where the caster was standing at the time of casting? (it's not an "emanation,"like Magic Circle Against Evil, after all)

- Do you know the "general" direction of items that are outside the area of the spell?

- Why does it have both a "Range" and an "Area" if the circle is always centered on the caster?

The Metallian

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

- Does the center of the area of effect remain "rooted" to the spot where the caster was standing at the time of casting? (it's not an "emanation,"like Magic Circle Against Evil, after all)

The reason Locate Object is written differently than the Magic Circle spells (specifically, in that it's not an emanation centered on the caster) is the following:

Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst’s center point, a cone-shaped burst’s starting point, a cylinder’s circle, or an emanation’s point of origin).

An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell’s line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell’s line of effect.

It would be pretty silly for a Locate Object spell to only be able to detect objects that are lying on tables in front of you.

EDIT, To add:

- Do you know the "general" direction of items that are outside the area of the spell?

As to this, you know absolutely nothing about items outside the area of the spell.

Let's assume you are sitting at your desk. You cast Locate Object, looking for a pen. The nearest pen is in a lead-lined box at your feet. The next closest pen is 525 feet due north of your position. The spell detects *nothing*.

However, if you stand up and move to the other side of your desk (say, 5' due north), the spell suddenly tells you, "North."

Note that if a thief, carrying the pilfered contents of a scribe's desk, were to start off due east of your desk and start running west, your spell would tell you "East," "East and little South." etc., until it told you "South and right above you" (he's running across the rooftops, of course), and it would then proceed with "West and a little South, etc." until the thief ran out of range, at which point the spell would resume telling you, "North."