D&D 5E PotA "New Management" scenario - any ideas

[lumenbeing]

Has anyone actually ran this side quest? I don't have a lot of experience running that type of scenario, so I'd be interested in hearing how to do it right and work some exp rewards into it. Unless the PCs get into an un-winnable fight, there isn't really any combat. It's all sleuthing, which sounds fun, but how do I know when to award exp and how much. The book had no guidance on that as far as I read, and I read through it several times.
HotDQ had a similar low-combat scenario (chapter 2 iirc) which gave a list of non-combat exp rewards at the end.
It seems to me that the only possible outcome for the PCs is to lose face (lose renown?) with the Zhentarim. Presumably, they could earn renown for a positive outcome (IF they are Zhentarim members), but again, the book offers no guidance, and surely there should be some xp earned for playing this. The book says that the quest is appropriate for level 3 PCs so should I use the xp/adventuring day chart as a guide?
How have (or would) you more experienced DMs run this quest?
I have already read plenty of blog posts advising to skip it, so I don't need to hear that again. I want to run it but make it worthwhile for my players.

 

[doctorhook]

Has anyone actually ran this side quest? I don't have a lot of experience running that type of scenario, so I'd be interested in hearing how to do it right and work some exp rewards into it. Unless the PCs get into an un-winnable fight, there isn't really any combat. It's all sleuthing, which sounds fun, but how do I know when to award exp and how much. The book had no guidance on that as far as I read, and I read through it several times.
HotDQ had a similar low-combat scenario (chapter 2 iirc) which gave a list of non-combat exp rewards at the end.
It seems to me that the only possible outcome for the PCs is to lose face (lose renown?) with the Zhentarim. Presumably, they could earn renown for a positive outcome (IF they are Zhentarim members), but again, the book offers no guidance, and surely there should be some xp earned for playing this. The book says that the quest is appropriate for level 3 PCs so should I use the xp/adventuring day chart as a guide?
How have (or would) you more experienced DMs run this quest?
I have already read plenty of blog posts advising to skip it, so I don't need to hear that again. I want to run it but make it worthwhile for my players.

Now that you mention it, you're right. My players are on the cusp of doing that sidetrek, and now I'm also suddenly wondering what is actually to be done.

Most of the Side Trek mini-adventures are more loosely structured, or at least structured very differently. So we fill in the blanks with whatever we like? Sounds scary...until I recall that this is D&D, and we do that all the time. Then again, "Just wing it!" isn't very satisfying answer.

 

[77IM]

MAJOR SPOILERS!

(And I'm not going to put it in a spoiler tag because you shouldn't be reading this thread if you don't want spoilers.)

I ran it just a few days ago, and it worked great. My players are connoisseurs of mystery adventures, too, and like to pick apart adventure structure and figure out what makes a good mystery -- we take turns DMing and have all run mysteries for each other. The consensus is that this was a very engaging, classic, and well-done frame-job.

What Worked Well:

NPC personalities. Thaelond was a snob. Muruin was a demanding hard-nose, right from the start. Kendrin was a simpering coward, with a gambling problem. I introduced these NPCs before the mystery started. Strong, quirky personalities make people suspect in mysteries; a boring NPC is assumed to be irrelevant. (Like Thaelond's valet, Inconsequentialus, who accompanied him to Waterdeep and thus did not appear in the adventure.)

Zhentarim intrigue. The players pretty much knew to expect shenanigans; in fact their first instinct was that Thaelond had set them up to be the hatchet-men taking down Muruin.

Splitting up the party. Two PCs went to interrogate Kendrin about the note, and the other two ran for the strong-room, guessing (correctly) that it would be hit first.

Extra clues. I threw in a lot of extra clues:
- The pay chest in the strongroom had 500gp stolen from it, and the players were able to figure this out by looking at Thaelond's ledger back in his office. (The adventure says he has it with him and shows it when he gets back, but I let them find it right away because they looked.) This is relevant because only 300gp shows up in Muruin's room (the other 200gp is hidden in the attic).
- Muruin's valet, Liilah, confirmed that Muruin had last worn her dress shirt a few weeks ago. The money and keys were hidden in Muruin's room under the wardrobe where the dress shirt was kept (so who-ever hid them could have also pulled a few buttons).
- The handwriting on the notes stashed on Grendo and Kendrin looked dwarven. It matched Inglor's handwriting on the skeleton-key checkout sheet in Thaelond's office.
- Dust on Inglor's boots -- a PC aced a Wisdom (Perception) check, so I made this up on the spot. It matched the dust in the attic, and the boots matched the footprints. Inglor also had a blue thread from Muruin's dress shirt in his pocket (it fell off a button).
- Wax on the inside of the keyhole in Thaelond's office indicated someone had made a "mold" to reproduce a key (explaining how Inglor had gotten in and out of the office without anyone noticing him out there picking the lock -- he just opened the door with his replica key). This didn't help the PCs solve the puzzle, but it could have, if they had followed up on it earlier.

What Could Have Worked Better:

Introduce Inglor earlier. The players were getting the idea that Muruin had been framed, but they only pegged Inglor when they did handwriting analysis (a clue I made up, not in the adventure). It's a little bit lame for the real criminal to show up so late in the story.

If I were introducing Inglor earlier, I'd also throw in a couple more NPC suspects with him. A good mystery adventure should give several suspects who get weeded out systematically. Each initially needs evidence both for and against them; but as clues mount, more evidence comes out pointing to the real culprit, and evidence pointing elsewhere gets explained away.

Insight checks. I let the players make Wisdom (Insight) checks to detect if someone was lying. In hindsight, this makes a mystery adventure pretty damn easy. You can quickly eliminate suspects by asking, "Did you do it?" and then getting like a 19 on your Insight check.

From now on I'm going to do it like this: You can roll Wisdom (Insight) vs. Charisma (Deception) to detect someone's real emotions: nervous, frightened, evasive, defensive, or having some emotional reaction that's not quite right (like they are too happy and trying to hide it). If you win by 10 or more, you detect whether or not they are lying. If someone is telling the truth and earnest in their emotions, it's a flat DC to detect lies, equal to 20 minus their Charisma (Persuasion) modifier. This leaves open the possibility of detecting lies, but makes it realistically hard, and not a good way to eliminate suspects -- it still may be useful for interrogating witnesses.

Player motivation. At first the PCs were not sure they cared about any of this. They were only being paid 100gp to watch the Inn, and they didn't really see a problem with letting Muruin take the fall, since they didn't like her. But actually her being a hard-ass, and wanting to cut off Kendrin's head, led them to conclude that solving this mystery would spare innocent lives. By the end, they actually liked Muruin, who has decided she trusts the PCs and owes them a big favor.


XP:
I awarded 200 XP for clearing Muruin's name, 400 XP for convicting Inglor, and 10 XP for recovering the stolen gold, as described here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?442930-Princes-of-the-Apocalypse-Quest-XP
That's 610 XP per PC, so 2,440 XP altogether for my party of four 4th-level PCs. For a 4th-level party, that's roughly 2 1/2 "medium" encounter's worth of XP. Since this little mystery took about two hours to play through, that seems about right.

 

[77IM]

Oh, and the most important question to ask the PCs at the start of this adventure, when they arrive:

"Do you knock on the door politely, or do you Bargewright Inn!"

 

[77IM]

Here are some Important NPCs that you may want to introduce to the PCs before the adventure even starts.

- Chalaska Muruin, the senior sword, a hard-ass. I ran her as stern, and kind of bloodthirsty and impatient, but also very lawful.
- Kendrin Feldarr, an exotic animal dealer. I ran him as a gambling addict who thought Doppelgängers were out to get him and was convinced the PCs were Doppelgängers.
- Grendo, a young tavern server. I ran him as an earnest and forthright youth, who was smitten with the party's bard.
- Inglor Brathren, a dwarven handyman. I made him the senior handyman, and ran him as a sort of conspiracy kook.
- Nalaskur Thaelond, the innkeeper, who rides off so quickly that he's not really featured in the adventure. I ran him as a snob who thinks his time is worth more than yours.

...That's really not enough NPCs for a good mystery. I would add 1-2 more if I were you. Make them interesting and suspicious. Ideas:
- Yordram, A Red Wizard of Thay whose goods have been impounded by Muruin and/or Thaelond. He has motive and might have magical opportunity. Maybe he has a really great alias but maybe it's an illusion?
- Saliel, A half-elven fey-pact warlock who is a Harper. She insists she had nothing to do with it but maybe some of the evidence points to her. In fact she is lying about her whereabouts during the crime, but only to hide her Harper activities.
- Make Grendo more interesting. Maybe instead of a serving boy, he's Thaelond's young protege, and is upset that he didn't get the job of watching the inn while Thaelond was gone. This gives him motivation to act against the PCs during the investigation itself. He's probably the first person Muruin searches, making the finding of his note a good way to kick of multiple courses of investigation.


Remember the two golden rules of rpg mysteries:
1. Always make sure there are 3x as many clues as the players need to discover something because they might miss 1-2 clues. Mysteries are more interesting when the PCs find the clues and try to piece them together. Corollary: Try to have some clues that are un-missable, or a backup plan if the PCs miss them anyway (like an NPC finding the clue and bringing it to the PCs attention).
2. Use red herrings sparingly as they can waste a ton of time. False leads should get explained away quickly during the normal course of investigation. For every red herring clue, make sure there are 3 clues that prove the red herring is wrong (see rule 1).

 

[lumenbeing]

Thanks for the detailed reply 77IM. That's just what I was looking for. I especially appreciate the "what I would have done differently" section and the advice on adding in additional NPCs. I think I also need a better map, one that lays out the main building so my players have a visual reference of the different rooms they can investigate. The map that is provided with the adventure is cool, but kind of irrelevant since all the action happens in the main inn. My players really like using minis and battle maps so I feel like I need to throw them a little red meat to hold their interest and move from scene to scene.
Two hours of play is about what I estimated and that's about how long my weekly sessions run for (I derailed an Encounters table) which is why I couldn't see spending an entire session on this and then awarding zero xp.
Your downloadable file is really helpful.

 

[77IM]

Oh yeah. Two things.

1. I used this map:
http://www.rpgnow.com/product/142553/Sample-Tavern-The-Sweet-Hags-Bosom

I like that map because it has a lot going on. I made Thaelorn's office be the triangular room right in the center of the 1st floor. I decided the towers were free-standing towers that were part of the "old inn." I didn't map them because, uh, they were just round and boring. The servants' quarters and the Swords' quarters were also not mapped.

2. There was no combat.

If you want to add combat, here are some ideas.
- A fight with the Swords, especially if the evidence is all against Muruin and the PCs try to take her into custody; or the reverse (it's easy to implicate the PCs and maybe the Swords come after them). Make sure to emphasize that the Swords are dealing non-lethal damage! Explain to the PCs that killing guards is a really serious offense; the cops don't take kindly to cop-killers. Also explain to the PCs that Muruin controls 40 guards so maybe they don't want to make war on the entire defensive apparatus. Actually, if you just explain that killing everyone is worth zero XP, most groups will avoid that.
- It's possible that the store-room has a defensive system that activates on anyone who enters without the key, summoning a few low-level devils or something, when the party goes to investigate. Maybe activating one or two weaker golems. I'd avoid summoning elementals since this adventure is already overloaded with them.
- Kendrin drops some poison spiders. boooooooring. What if he throws a potion of animal growth on them or something? The PCs have to fight the giant spiders and try to catch Kendrin at the same time. You could extend this chase scene by having him toss more pokeballs at the party.
- Inglor could have conspirators, maybe an Assassin or two who try to take the party out when they get close to the truth. I'm not sure how much sense that makes, though. If Inglor has such powerful allies why are they framing Muruin instead of just killing her? (Or better yet, killing Thaelond and framing Muruin for that?) A better ally for Inglor would be something like a Shield Guardian hidden somewhere, and Inglor flees to that place once caught. Or maybe he just flees into the sewer, and the otyugh defends him because he's always bringing it spare roadkill.
- Tavern patrons might resist being searched and a brawl could break out. The party could be called upon to help subdue the paying customers. Maybe a suspect or two tries to flee in the confusion.
- If the keys to the outer gates don't get locked, maybe some kobolds sneak in and start menacing townsfolk. The PCs might have to help hunt them down and/or rescue captured babies.

 

[doctorhook]

[MENTION=12377]77IM[/MENTION] I've XP'd all your posts in this thread thus far, because your contribution here is excellent. Thanks bud!

 

[CapnZapp]

I found "New Management" unsalvageable. It simply isn't interesting. Besides, getting the key to a Zhentarim Inn is wholly unsuitable for most parties, I'd wager.

Instead, I drew from several sources (PotA, SKT, this thread, The Womford Bat PDF) to arrive at the following substitute scenario hook:

While senior sword Chalaska Muruin generally prevents the Womford Bat from feeding on Zhent guests and trading partners, sometimes the gains justify the risks. Muruin has learned one of the current traders have broken into her safe and copied sensitive information on the Black Network. This cannot be allowed to leave the compound!

So she closes down Bargewright Inn. Then her plan is to delay while the Womford Bat feeds on each trader, after intimidating the truth out of them. As each one disappears, she has a reason for going through their belongings (if the Bat doesn't find proof), confiscating anything valuable regardless of whether the trader was innocent or not. Ka-ching.

As long as she successfully roots out the culprit, she figures she can justify her actions about the others to the higher-ups.

The traders currently staying at Old Bargewright:
Arik Stillmarsh, thin pale human, rare books vendor
Yordramma, a red-robed “monk” female with a shaved head (Red Wizard of Thay) and her three apprentices
Let's assume she's the culprit here, but as the DM you might want to leave that up to chance. Or perhaps the twist is nobody's guilty...? Regardless, the scenario secret is - this isn't particularly vital. The scenario's real job is to freak out the PCs...
Saliel, tiefling too-wide smile, trafficker in pleasure drugs (and really demon truenames), summons up any bodyguards as needed
Kendrin Feldarr, hot-tempered dwarf, exotic animals dealer with 1d6 wranglers, accompanied by a tame guard Owlbear or something
The party

Innkeeper Nalaskur has not been informed about any of this, and might just do something that ruins Muruin's plans (in order to rise in the ranks himself).
Nell Flairgarten, local busybody and eyes for Stillmarsh.

Inglor Brathren, senior handyman and conspiracy kook ("game over, man, game over!").
Grendo, Nalaskur Thaelonds protege
Beggus, Zhentarim thug
Pinky, Zhentarim thug
Orphala Schmid, widow of the Bat's latest victim (over in Womford)



The scenario is basically this (assuming the PCs sit on their hands) - one of the traders (except Stillmarsh ;-) ) get eaten, paranoia ensues, "incompetent" Zhentarims, Yordramma starts a fight with Feldarr killing him, more paranoia, Yordramma casts Fireball setting the Inn on fire but disappears after that. Then everything returns to normal, the party is free to go.

The party needs to do at least one thing:
1) find out the truth and have evidence to back it up. Muruin backs down, assuming they can't prove her connection to the vampire. Otherwise she needs to go all-out, commanding every sword to kill the adventurers. (Confronting her in private is preferable)
2) kill the vampire
3) assassinate Muruin - this will give Stillwater cold feet (even colder than usual) and he takes a vacation, possibly never to return. Getting away with murdering the Senior Sword could be challenging, though.
4) improvising and bluffing. Some players love to rewrite the truth. After all, this is D&D: roll 20 on enough social checks, cast a Charm Person or two, and maybe this drama gets an entirely unexpected resolution...!
5) flee the compound, a mini-adventure all of itself if they want their wagon or heavy stuff with them. Remember, their valuables are impounded while this is ongoing
6) convince other traders to join up (rather difficult considering mutual distrust and alignment differences) either to break out, confront Muruin, or simply for defense (the Bat doesn't dare attack), until Muruin gives up, the Bat starts eating her staff or both
7) otherwise just sit it out. See below

Muruin does not suspect the party - the Womford Bat will never target them*. But the players don't know this! Once three out of four traders are eliminated (it just so happens Stillwater is the last standing trader each time you DM this...) Muruin lifts the lock-down, having gotten what she wanted.
*) unless the DM feels particularly devious, of course. Remember, the Bat would attack only a single PC, so this would be very deadly indeed.

Clues: like 77IM said, be generous with clues. Have there be significant glances between Stillwater and Flairgarten, and between Muruin and Stillwater. Have the party notice Flairgarten was always around just before a disappearance. Allow the party to learn Stillwater has stayed at the inn for over a year, while the others have stayed a tenday or less. Inglor could always say "he gives me the creeps". Nosy PCs should be able to find out Muruin's Swords loots each disappeared trader. The party should be able to sneak out after learning about the Womford Bat and be able to interview peasants across the river. Innkeeper Nalaskur is an excellent source of the "I hear our senior sword lost some pretty vital intel the other day, no wonder she's so testy..." kind of gossip. Breaking into her office nets several reports where she tries to avoid blame for the loss of intelligence, all scrapped (written before coming up with the brilliant Bat idea), if not outright stolen loot (after people start dropping off she might pick especially valuable trinkets for herself)...

I'd limit the number of red herrings to angry and scared traders only, and possibly Innkeeper Nalaskur, who could plant false leads (if the party has it too easy) or clue them in (because he hopes to get rid of Muruin).

Remember, this is just a seed of a scenario. An outline. I'm sure there are logic flaws that needs ironing out.

Thanks to 77IM and Fred Love for good NPC ideas