Power attack bonus x2 for 2 hand weps

[Hypersmurf]

That's right! Unless your attack bonus is already so high that you already (would) hit on a 1 (if it weren't for the auto-fail rule), your 8th level Fighter...[/i]

Not sure about 8th level, but there are plenty of occasions when a high-level fighter can only miss with his first iterative attack on a 1.

The problem with Power Attack at high levels is not that it causes your first attack to miss - it's that it causes your third and fourth attacks to miss. And the damage gained on the first and second attacks from Power Attack is less than the damage you would have done with those third and fourth iterative attacks.

If you're only using that first attack - Charge, Spring Attack, or whatever - then you frequently have the Attack Bonus to burn... because 10 or so points of Power Attack doesn't significantly hurt the chance that your primary attack will hit, and there aren't any follow-up attacks to be adversely affected.

-Hyp.

 

[Mike Sullivan]

Not sure about 8th level, but there are plenty of occasions when a high-level fighter can only miss with his first iterative attack on a 1.

Right. I'm a little dubious about that happening a lot at 8th level, though. After all, you don't have a 3rd or 4th attack (if you're a greatsword wielder) at that point.

Three other things:

1. I get the impression -- and maybe I'm wrong -- that many of the posters on this thread aren't saying, "Power Attack is a good feat because you can raise your damage while pegging your to-hit rate at 95%."

2. If you're significantly overhitting your opponent at 8th level, there are two possibilities: first, that they aren't a melee challenge at all (either not a challenge at all, or spellcasters or whatever), in which case it probably doesn't matter too much whether or not you hit for 18 or 21 damage, on average. Second, that they make up for their lack of defensive ability by pouring on the offense, in which case Expertise might be a better use of your extraneous attack bonus.

3. D&D3.5 is alleged to feature monsters with higher AC's, reducing the marginal utility of Power Attack even below it's 3.0 rate, unless Power Attack is somehow changed -- like, by making it x2 for two-handers.

 

[frisbeet]

Just because I can, in the spirit of Mike Sullivan's analyis, I'm presenting a comparison between a 3.0 and 3.5 fighter, otherwise the same:

16 level

24 Strength

Feats of Weapon Focus, Specialization, and Improved Critical in Greatsword, and Power Attack

Wielding a +4 keen Greatsword

Here's the average Full Attack damage/round against a range of ACs, no DR. The 3.0 numbers can be checked on my website optimum PA spreadsheet (large!), just click my signature. By tweaking it slightly I can calculate the 3.5 numbers. (Incidently I'm waiting for the 3.5 release to append lots more weapons and incoroprate lots more feats and classes to these spreadsheets, but that doesn't have to stop you from downloading & modifying them if you feel so inclined). Here average full attack damage round = P(hitting AC__)*ave D + P(critically hitting AC__)*ave crit D. The optimum PA listed maximizes the ave dam/round, and is found by brutally calculating this ave. D value for all possible PAs (17 in this example).

AC___opt. 3.5 PA___3.5 ave D___opt. 3.0 PA__3.0 ave D
10_______15_______210.1_______11_______152.5
11_______14_______202.2_______11_______148.1
12_______13_______194.3_______10_______143.7
13_______12_______186.4_______10_______139.4
14_______11_______178.4_______9________135.2
15_______10_______170.5_______9________131.0
16_______9________162.6_______8________126.9
17_______8________154.6_______8________122.9
18_______8________147.0_______7________119.0
19_______7________139.5_______6________115.0
20_______7________132.3_______5________111.0
21_______6________125.1_______4________107.1
22_______6________118.3_______3________103.1
23_______5________111.5_______2________99.1
24_______4________104.8_______1________95.2
25_______4________98.3________0________91.2
26_______4________92.1________0________86.7
27_______3________86.1________0________82.2
28_______2________80.2________0________77.7
29_______1________74.3________0________73.0
30_______0________68.3________0________68.3
31_______0________62.3________0________62.3
32_______0________56.4________0________56.4
33_______0________50.5________0________50.5
34_______0________45.8________0________45.8
35_______0________41.1________0________41.1
36_______0________36.6________0________36.6
37_______0________32.1________0________32.1
38_______0________27.8________0________27.8
39_______0________24.6________0________24.6
40_______0________21.4________0________21.4
41_______0________18.3________0________18.3
42_______0________15.4________0________15.4
43_______0________12.6________0________12.6
44_______16_______11.6________0________10.8
45_______16_______11.6________0________9.1
46_______16_______11.6________16_______8.2
47_______16_______11.6________16_______8.2
48_______16_______11.6________16_______8.2
49_______16_______11.6________16_______8.2
50_______16_______11.6________16_______8.2

 

[Mike Sullivan]

Nice analysis, Frisbeet, though I point out that the Greater Weapon Focus and Specialization traits will make for a somewhat different playing field -- for Fighters, at least -- in 3.5.

 

[Darklone]

Bah, all these changes and the real problem imho with power attack didn't get changed:

That a fighter with some attacks who only hit on a natural 20 could go full power attack all the time and multiply his damage output.

 

[Ds Da Man]

Jeesh... it's not that big of a deal! There are probably thousands of feats out there right now that let any character turn into a BA, massive damage machine. This one change isn't breaking the camel's back. Thats the negative of 3E, all the number-crunching. Don't like the rule, and your a DM, change it!

Lets see, TWF gives an extra attack, and PA lets a 2H weapon fighter deal double the point cost. Now don't even get me started on crap like monkey grip that was designed for the TWF. It sounds a lot more fair to me. I also don't have a problem with light weapons not getting a power attack. They can weapon fineese their weapon, using their outrageous dex's, and keep their awesome AC's. And use bows and such better. IMHO theives were already getting the best, through their bullcrap +7d6 damages on anything causing a person to lose their dex bonus, not just sneak attacks. Thats some BS. All you Drizzt wannbe's are just irked because you can't min-max the same way you were. Well don't worry, I'm sure there will be some true blue min-max feats a'comin. Just like 3E has always been. Face it, most of you worry about the #s first, the roleplaying second. Way its been since I played D&D.

 

[green slime]

Bah, all these changes and the real problem imho with power attack didn't get changed:

That a fighter with some attacks who only hit on a natural 20 could go full power attack all the time and multiply his damage output.

And in the five rounds it takes for him to connect, he'll be dead...

Facing such a monster, surely a better tactic would be to withdraw?

 

[Darklone]

And in the five rounds it takes for him to connect, he'll be dead...

Facing such a monster, surely a better tactic would be to withdraw?

If it's a monster, usually yes. If not (in case of a AC maxxed NPC), he'd prolly kill him with three or four lucky blows.

Ah well... where was that houserule that a nat 20 is considered a rolled 30 and nat 1 is a -10?

 

[Bobbystopholes]

Too much math hurt Bobby's head. Him play D&D a lot, but don't think about math so much.

New PA makes good sense. Two hands makes more damage. House rules stink. Just play the game.

 

[Ave Rage]

Too much math hurt Bobby's head. Him play D&D a lot, but don't think about math so much.

New PA makes good sense. Two hands makes more damage. House rules stink. Just play the game.

The man's a genious!

*goes to play D&D with his new two-hander using paladin*

SMITE + Power Attack + Divine Might (20cha) + lv.8 paladin + keen greatsword/animated large metal sheild = XD

I can't wait to go full power and crit. I think I shall cry when that happens.