Power Attack + Critical?

[Henry]

He rolled something like 12, 12, 10, slaughtering an 8 HD bearded devil.

(*That was in 3.0, so damage was actually slightly lower than the figures given above.)

Hm. He might have been slightly higher-level than 1st...

Two weeks ago, My mid-level fighter fought a cave troll. I combined a leap attack (Comp. Adv.), a power attack, and a charge, struck with my sword, scored a critical, and dealt 53 damage with the one attack. I was so proud.

Then the troll ripped me a new one and dealt about 74 right back, with no crits.

 

[Insight]

Two weeks ago, My mid-level fighter fought a cave troll. I combined a leap attack (Comp. Adv.), a power attack, and a charge, struck with my sword, scored a critical, and dealt 53 damage with the one attack. I was so proud.

Then the troll ripped me a new one and dealt about 74 right back, with no crits.

I have a new character with Leap Attack/Power Attack and I can't wait til I full PA+Leap Att and crit for the first time with my Dire Pick (x4 Crit) MUHAHAHAHA

4d8 (base) + 1d6 Flaming + 36 (+9 (2h) str x4) + 30 ((PA: BAB 5) x 6 I believe x3 + 3 for crit) = 4d8 + 1d6 + 66!

 

[Philip]

One of my DM's has an interesting way of looking at two-handed power attacks with criticals. He says that since the amount you power attack has in effect been multiplied by two already (the -1 for +2 thing for two handed) then the multipliers are additive. So a power attack for -1 would give +3 dmg on a crit instead of +4 (with a x2 weapon).

This may or may not be RAW, but I like the way it works.

It's not RAW, damage modifiers don't multiply on criticals, because damage is rolled separately and they are applied multiple times.

And you don't multiply your damage bonus with the +2 for -1 thingie, you add +2 to damage for each -1 you take on your attack roll. It might yield the same result as multiplying by two, but that does not mean power attack with a 2-handed weapon is suddenly a case of multiplying damage.

It is an Interesting way to justify a house rule, though.

 

[Insight]

I'm not sure I understand how adding +5 damage 3 times is different from adding 5x3 to the damage. It is a multiplier, is it not?

 

[Darkness]

Fun stuff. Reminds me of the 4th-level fighter cohort who killed a 3.0 balor in one round...evil outsiders died really fast; 3.0 was interesting that way

Yeah, hahaha. WotC knew why they significantly raised the HD and Con scores of lots of demons and devils in 3.5.

 

[the Jester]

It's not RAW, damage modifiers don't multiply on criticals, because damage is rolled separately and they are applied multiple times.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here... when you crit, you certainly do multiply your mods. If I attack with a +2 weapon and I have a +2 str bonus, if I crit with a weapon that does double damage on a crit, instead of +4 damage, I do +8 damage.

And you don't multiply your damage bonus with the +2 for -1 thingie, you add +2 to damage for each -1 you take on your attack roll. It might yield the same result as multiplying by two, but that does not mean power attack with a 2-handed weapon is suddenly a case of multiplying damage.

This is interesting. I am the dm in question, and I just looked up the text of Power Attack- it doesn't use the term 'mulitply' in any way. Still, that's clearly what you're doing. I could see an argument either way.

(For the record, I came to this conclusion when playing my Power Attacking pc in someone else's game.)

 

[ThirdWizard]

This is interesting. I am the dm in question, and I just looked up the text of Power Attack- it doesn't use the term 'mulitply' in any way.

Yep. "Add twice the number." Since you're adding a number twice and not multiplying, then it doesn't use the multiplying stacking rules. It seems to be specifically worded this way so that it can be multiplied on a critical. That's how it works by RAW anyway.

 

[Coredump]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here... when you crit, you certainly do multiply your mods. If I attack with a +2 weapon and I have a +2 str bonus, if I crit with a weapon that does double damage on a crit, instead of +4 damage, I do +8 damage.

But thats just it. You *don't* 'multiply your mods'. You add them extra times.

Mathematiclly similar, mechanically very different.

 

[pawned79]

My friend and I were going over this. We think it is completely obvious that Power Attack is not considered "normal weapon damage" as required under Critical Hit in the PHB 3.5 p140. At level 1, it doesn’t make much of a difference, but we went ahead and ran some numbers for level 1 and level 5. They are included below. Just as a reminder, Power Attack doubles the damage on non-light weapons that are wielded with two hands. Also, remember two-handed weapons are strength-and-a-half. As you will see below, our consensuses is that Weapon Specialization is included as “normal weapon damage” because, at a minimum, it always included when you use this weapon. Once you become SO GOOD you consider this as normal. With that being said, you’ll see below, that we think that Power Attack is not “normal weapon damage” because it can be toggled in many ways. It isn’t your normal attack. It’s like an “attack option” that you choose to use sometimes. Anyway, here are the numbers...

Critical: Method 1
This method includes the power attack in the multiplication for critical hit.

Level 1 Human Fighter w/ 18 Strength
Weapon: Scythe (2d4 x4)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Scythe), Improved Critical, Power Attack
Power Attacking at -1 to hit, +2 to damage:
+1 BAB +4 STR +1 WF -1 PA = +5 TH
2d4 +6 STR +2 PA = 2d4+8 DMG
(2d4+8)x4 DMG = 8d4+32 DMG
(Minimum: 40 DMG, Average: 48 DMG, Maximum: 64 DMG)

Level 5 Human Fighter w/ 19 Strength
Weapon: Scythe (2d4 x4)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Scythe), Improved Critical, Power Attack, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Weapon Specialization (Scythe)
Power Attacking at -5 to hit, +10 to damage:
+5 BAB +4 STR +1 WF -5 PA = +5 TH
2d4 +2 WS +6 STR +10 PA = 2d4+18 DMG
(2d4+18)x4 DMG = 8d4+72 DMG
(Minimum: 80 DMG, Average: 88 DMG, Maximum: 104 DMG)

Critical: Method 2
This method excludes the power attack in the multiplication for critical hit.

Level 1 Human Fighter w/ 18 Strength
Weapon: Scythe (2d4 x4)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Scythe), Improved Critical, Power Attack
Power Attacking at -1 to hit, +2 to damage:
+1 BAB +4 STR +1 WF -1 PA = +5 TH
2d4 +6 STR + 2 PA = 2d4+8 DMG
((2d4+6)x4)+2 DMG = 8d4+26 DMG
(Minimum: 34 DMG, Average: 42 DMG, Maximum: 58 DMG)

Level 5 Human Fighter w/ 19 Strength
Weapon: Scythe (2d4 x4)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Scythe), Improved Critical, Power Attack, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Weapon Specialization (Scythe)
Power Attacking at -5 to hit, +10 to damage:
+5 BAB +4 STR +1 WF -5 PA = +5 TH
2d4 +2 WS +6 STR +10 PA = 2d4+18 DMG
((2d4+8)x4)+10 DMG = 8d4+42 DMG
(Minimum: 50 DMG, Average: 58 DMG, Maximum: 74 DMG)

 

[pawned79]

We were noting a pattern of the damage we presented in our post just a few moments ago. In our particular example the difference in damage between Method 1 and Method 2 is 6 points of damage per level. Note that the level 1 fighters differ by 6 points, and the level 5 fighters differ by 30 points. Following this up the level tree (assuming your new feats don’t make you any better, and your weapon and strength doesn’t change), you’ll keep going up by 6 points per level. At level 10, method 1 will give you 60 more damage every time you score a critical hit on a power attack. Some numbers...

2d4 +6 STR +2 WS +20 PA = Method 1: (2d4+28)x4 = 8d4+112; Method 2: ((2d4+8)x4)+20 = 8d4+52
(Difference by 60 points)

Just think, level 20 has a difference of 120 points. Choosing Method 1 ALWAYS puts 120 points over those that choose Method 2.

Determining which method is correct is very important. We vote Method 2, which doesn’t consider power attack as “normal weapon damage.” Our choice is still based off of the wording of the rule. It has nothing to do with these numbers. We use them simply to illustrate the dramatic difference.