Power Attack + Critical?

[Majoru Oakheart]

Determining which method is correct is very important. We vote Method 2, which doesn’t consider power attack as “normal weapon damage.” Our choice is still based off of the wording of the rule. It has nothing to do with these numbers. We use them simply to illustrate the dramatic difference.

I, along with the 30+ DMs I've played with would disagree with your interpretation of the wording.

Power attack doesn't multiply anything, you just add 2 for every one you minus instead of 1. The ONLY thing that isn't added a second time with crits is extra damage DICE. A number is not a dice. All bonuses from the first attack regardless of where they come from are added again for the crit damage.

 

[Rystil Arden]

pawned: Its still normal weapon damage. The fact is, you are dealing that damage with your weapon in the exact same way as all other damage from the weapon (slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning), you are just hitting harder than usual. The key is that the extra damage does not come in dice. Anything that does not come in dice (enhancement bonus, specialisation bonus, power attack bonus, favoured enemy bonus), is a modifier to the base damage of the weapon, and counts as normal weapon damage. The book would tell you if Power Attack damage did not multiply. After all, it tells you that Sneak Attack doesn't. Frankly, the extra damage is only so extreme because of 3.5's two-handed power attack rule.

 

[Diirk]

We were noting a pattern of the damage we presented in our post just a few moments ago. In our particular example the difference in damage between Method 1 and Method 2 is 6 points of damage per level. Note that the level 1 fighters differ by 6 points, and the level 5 fighters differ by 30 points. Following this up the level tree (assuming your new feats don’t make you any better, and your weapon and strength doesn’t change), you’ll keep going up by 6 points per level. At level 10, method 1 will give you 60 more damage every time you score a critical hit on a power attack. Some numbers...

2d4 +6 STR +2 WS +20 PA = Method 1: (2d4+28)x4 = 8d4+112; Method 2: ((2d4+8)x4)+20 = 8d4+52
(Difference by 60 points)

Just think, level 20 has a difference of 120 points. Choosing Method 1 ALWAYS puts 120 points over those that choose Method 2.

Thats the most absurd 'evidence' I've ever seen. Firstly you can't give a level 1 fighter improved critical, not like it matters much seeing as you simply assumed a crit would come along when you wanted it. Secondly, just because there's some scarily big numbers doesn't mean its broken. Sure the level 20 does 120 more points of damage if you calculate it the correct way... but do you know why ? Because you're put ALL his BAB into the power attack. Great, how often do you think he's going to hit with a total attack mod of something like +10 ? A 20 always autohits, but its not a crit unless you can confirm it. Likewise a 19 (with improved crit) isn't a crit if it misses, and even if it hits you have to confirm it also...

Its not the problem you're making it out to be.

 

[pawned79]

I have included quotes from the text at the end of this post.

I have change my mind. I have yet to talk to my friend about it, but I will inform him of my decision as to why I changed my mind. Text presented on p114 of the PHB 3.5 trumps sidebars present on pages p140 and p306 of the PHB 3.5. The only conflict between these three quotes is on p306 in the phrase “Any extra damage dice...” as apposed to the text on p114 that states “Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage...” Since p114 trumps p306, we can safely ignore the reference to the word “dice.” This leaves the all-inclusive-statement “Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage...” Now, my focus initially in this discussion was in the concept of “normal damage.” I was ignoring the statement on p114 that states “...(using all applicable modifiers on each roll)...” Power Attack is clearly an “applicable modifier.” I would like to note that the definition of modifier on p310 of the PHB 3.5 counts as a sidebar. There may be another definition of modifier in the text that trumps it. Modifier is not listed in the index, and I am too lazy to flip through the entire PHB 3.5 to see if there is one. I don’t think anyone would disagree with the definition of modifier presented on p310 of the PHB 3.5 though.

Anyway, long story longer, Power Attack is a modifier, and I believe an “applicable modifier” at that. Those scoring a critical hit while using the Power Attack feat should consider themselves lucky and reap the benefits that my friend and I calculated previously.

As a side note, initially it was not our intention to prove our point with the mathematics we presented earlier. In fact, we didn’t care about proving it at all. We had started crunching the numbers for the two arguments and found them interesting. Again, our initial decision was based off of the phrase “normal damage.” I found some of the comments in response to our post to be rude, and I took offense to them. Impassioned by my upset state, I decided to prove our critics wrong. My more-thorough look at the rules actually drove me to the current conclusion; the conclusion of our critics. Nevertheless, I still find said responses to unwarranted.

QUOTE p310 PHB 3.5

modifier: Any bonus or penalty applying to a die roll. A positive modifier is a bonus, and a negative modifier is a penalty. Modifiers from the same source do not stack, and modifiers with specific descriptors generally do not stack with others of the same type. If more than one modifier of a type is present, only the best bonus or worst penalty in the grouping applies. Bonuses or penalties that do not have descriptors stack with those that do.

QUOTE p114 PHB 3.5

Critical: The entry in this column notes how the weapon is used with the rules for critical hits. When your character scores a critical hit, roll the damage two, three, or four times, as indicated by its critical multiplier (using all applicable modifiers on each roll), and add all the results together.
Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage, such as that dealt by a sneak attack or the special ability of a flaming sword, is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.

QUOTE p140 PHB 3.5

A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is x2.
Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage, such as that dealt by a sneak attack or the special ability of a flaming sword, is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.

QUOTE p306 PHB 3.5

critical hit (crit): A hit that strikes a vital area and therefore deals double damage or more. To score a critical hit, an attacker must first score a threat (usually a natural 20 on an attack roll) and then succeed on a critical roll (just like another attack roll). Critical hit damage is usually double damage, which means rolling damage twice, just as if the attacker had actually hit the defender two times. (Any extra damage dice, such as from a rogue’s sneak attack, are not rolled multiple times, but are added to the total at the end of the calculation.)

 

[Diirk]

My post was probably a more offensively worded than it should have been, and I apologise for that. However you may want to give some thought into what the numbers you posted represent and how they would apply in a practical situation; in the case of your level 20 that does 120 extra damage using method 1 over method 2, for example, such a crit would occur maybe 1 time in 400 (rolling 2 20s) against most opponents he'd face. When you power attack to that degree, you'll only hit foes with low AC.

 

[pawned79]

The only reason I'm deriving these is because I found it fun to do. And I’m simply posting them for anyone else who finds them interesting. Here are my two final examples of the devastation that is Power Attack. The first presents the scythe, threatening a critical 10% of the time on a successful hit, and the second presents the exact same thing except with a scimitar, threatening a critical 30% of the time on a successful hit. To make it even worse, instead of fighter, he could be barbarian; Instead of human, he could be half-orc; Instead of half-orc, he could be a centaur! Oh man, don’t go pissing off scythe-wielding and scimitar-wielding barbarian centaurs.

Level 12 Human Fighter: Str 24, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 8
Equipment: +4 Strength Belt, Scythe +2, MW Full Plate, Trail Ration (In case he is hungry)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Scythe), Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Weapon Specialization (Scythe), Endurance, Diehard, Great Cleave, Greater Weapon Focus (Scythe), Greater Weapon Specialization (Scythe), Improved Critical, Dodge
Init: +1 Dex +4 II = +5 Init
AC: 10 +9 MWFP +1 Dex = AC 20
TH: +12 BAB +7 Str +1 WF +1 GWF +2 Scythe = +23 TH (PA as low as +11 TH)
DMG: 2d4+2 +10 Str +2 WS +2 GWS = 2d4+16 DMG (PA as high as 2d4+40 DMG)
Crit: Improve Critical Scythe 19-20 x4

Not Power Attacking
Threaten a critical hit on 19-20, roll of 19 hits AC 42 (Threatens 10% of the time)
Scoring a critical hit on AC 10, 20, 30, 40, 42, and higher on roll of 2, 2, 7, 17, 19, and 20 respectively
(2d4+16)x4 DMG = 8d4+64 DMG
Minimum 68 DMG, Average 84 DMG, Maximum 96 DMG

Power Attacking at -12 TH
Threaten a critical hit on 19-20, roll of 19 hits AC 30 (Threatens 10% of the time)
Scoring a critical hit on AC 10, 20, 30, and higher on roll of 2, 9, 19, and 20 respectively
(2d4+40)x4 DMG = 8d4+160 DMG
Minimum 168 DMG, Average 180 DMG, Maximum 192 DMG

-----------------

Level 12 Human Fighter: Str 24, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 8
Equipment: +4 Strength Belt, Scimitar +2, MW Full Plate, Trail Ration (In case he is hungry)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Weapon Specialization (Scimitar), Endurance, Diehard, Great Cleave, Greater Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Greater Weapon Specialization (Scimitar), Improved Critical, Dodge
Wielding scimitar with two hands...
Init: +1 Dex +4 II = +5 Init
AC: 10 +9 MWFP +1 Dex = AC 20
TH: +12 BAB +7 Str +1 WF +1 GWF +2 Scimitar = +23 TH (PA as low as +11 TH)
DMG: 1d6+2 +10 Str +2 WS +2 GWS = 1d6+16 DMG (PA as high as 1d6+40 DMG)
Crit: Improve Critical Scimitar 17-20 x2

Not Power Attacking
Threaten a critical hit on 15-20, roll of 15 hits AC 38 (Threatens 30% of the time)
Scoring a critical hit on AC 10, 20, 30, 40, 42, and higher on roll of 2, 2, 7, 17, 19, and 20 respectively
(1d6+16)x2 DMG = 2d6+32 DMG
Minimum 34 DMG, Average 38 DMG, Maximum 44 DMG

Power Attacking at -12 TH
Threaten a critical hit on 15-20, roll of 15 hits AC 26 (Threatens 30% of the time)
Scoring a critical hit on AC 10, 20, 30, and higher on roll of 2, 9, 19, and 20 respectively
(1d6+40)x2 DMG = 2d6+80 DMG
Minimum 82 DMG, Average 86 DMG, Maximum 96 DMG

 

[dcollins]

From the first page of the 3rd Edition D&D FAQ:

What bonuses get multiplied when a character confirms
a critical hit? Suppose a 10th-level barbarian with a
Strength score of 18 confirms a critical hit while raging and
using a +3 greataxe and a maximum Power Attack. How
much damage does the barbarian deal? Can you even use
the Power Attack feat while raging? What if the character
is a paladin using the smite evil ability, a fighter with
Weapon Specialization, or a rogue using a sneak attack?

It’s easiest to think of a confirmed critical hit as a number of
hits equal to the weapon’s critical damage multiplier. The
example character is using a greataxe, which has a critical
multiplier of x3, so the damage for a confirmed critical is just
like the damage for hitting the foe three times. The only
damage that is not multiplied in this way is damage expressed
in extra dice, such as for a rogue’s sneak attack (see page 123
in the Player’s Handbook).

The example character has a base attack bonus of +10, so the
damage bonus for a “maximum power attack” is +10. (Yes, you
can use Power Attack while raging. In fact, you can use just
about any feat except Expertise while raging; see the section on
rage in the barbarian class description in the Players’
Handbook.) The character’s Strength score increases to 22
while he rages, giving him a +6 damage bonus for Strength,
which increases to +9 because a greataxe is a two-handed
weapon. The greataxe’s +3 enhancement bonus also applies to
damage, so the character’s total damage from one hit with the
greataxe is 1d12+22 (10+9+3). A confirmed critical hit makes
the damage 3d12+66, just as if you had rolled 1d12+22 three
times.
...

3.5 rules changed the precise effect of Power Attack with a two-handed weapon, but the rules of what gets boosted by a critical are exactly the same.

 

[the Jester]

From the first page of the 3rd Edition D&D FAQ...

>snip<

3.5 rules changed the precise effect of Power Attack with a two-handed weapon, but the rules of what gets boosted by a critical are exactly the same.

Thanks for the cite!