Power recharging - mana pool

[ameinild]

Hi.

This is an updated Power Options system that we've been working on in my group. It features mana pool for flexible casting, power recharge, and expanded power selection. Stalker0's comments have been taken into account with this revision.

Please comment your thoughts on the system, we're still going to playtest it soon.

 

[Stalker0]

A very interesting system, I like the concept of it.

Here are my critiques.

1) I think you greatly undervalue the strength of utility powers. In many cases, I find utility powers to be some of my strongest powers. If nothing else, they are as good as the other powers.

2) If you standardized the utility power cost with the rest of the system, you can drop all of the numbers to make the math easier. A 5 MP amount now corresponds to 1 mana point, and the rest go from there. This will make your math a lot easier to work with.

So it might be that your 1st encounter or utility power costs 1 MP, a daily costs 2..etc etc.

3) I think the rounds before a power can be used again is a bad way to prevent players from spamming a power. I understand your desire to do this, but I think this is the wrong way to go about it. 4e has dropped the tracking of rounds, lets not dig up that rotting sacred beef.


Overall I like the concept, it just needs some clean and polish imo.

EDIT: One idea you might consider is to greatly reduce the amount of mana points, but you only spend mana points when you use a power beyond its regular use. For example, I spend an encounter power, which has no cost. If I choose to use that power again, I spend from my mana pool (which is now a much scarcer resource). That way a person who uses their array of powers doesn't burn through mana as quickly as a person who spams a single power.

 

[ameinild]

Thanx for your comments Stalker0 - we will work further on this, your input is greatly appreciated.

 

[ameinild]

Updated with the latest version... Please comment.

 

[Alex319]

Just to make sure I understand correctly how the encounters and dailies work:

Suppose I am 1st level, so I have 6 total MP.

This means that I can use my encounter attack power three times in one encounter, and I get my mana points recharged up to full at the end of the encounter. This means as long as I don't use my Daily, I can use my encounter power three times every encounter.

However, if I use my Daily, my max goes down to 2, so I can only use my encounter power once per encounter for every encounter from now until I take an extended rest.

This does two things:

1. Makes it so you can use Encounter powers a LOT more often than normal.

2. Makes it so it is almost never worth hurling a Daily unless you expect to take an extended rest after that battle.

The problem is that your statement that "when you use a daily power, following the existing system for powers, you should have less mana available for the next encounter" is only partially true. It is true that using a Daily means you have fewer powers available for the next encounter, but the amount of powers you have that recharge between encounters stays the same. A way of doing it that is more consistent with the intent of the existing system would be to have two mana pools: an "encounter mana pool" and a "daily mana pool." All mana used comes from the "encounter mana pool" first, and then from the "daily mana pool" once that is used up. The encounter mana pool recharges every encounter, while the daily mana pool is bigger but only recharges after an extended rest.

And also, I would advise re-wording "you cannot use the same power in 2 consecutive rounds" to "once you have used a power, you cannot use that same power until the end of your next turn." This clears up any confusion about what happens if you get multiple actions in a round due to action points, if you get to use a power via an interrupt, etc. (WotC did a similar thing in their errata for the striker damage abilities.)

Finally, you may not have gotten to this point yet, but how does Divine Miracle work in your system?

 

[Zelc]

I think the simplest way to implement this system would be to have two mana pools, one for encounter attack and utility powers (and possibly some other things) and one for daily attack and utility powers. You basically start with 1 in each and gain 1 in the appropriate mana pool every time you'd gain an extra use in that type of power, and using a power costs 1 mana (see below for another variation). Utilities could either always add a daily, or add based on which type you pick. The daily mana pool can be used to fuel encounter powers, but that mana pool does not recover after a short rest.

It only forces you to keep track of one more number in total, and it's the same amount of numbers that change. You keep track of two current mana values (which change) and two max mana values (which don't change.), rather than keeping track of one current mana value and one current max mana value (both of which change), along with one true max mana value (which doesn't change). This allows you to keep mana costs simple, somewhat more easily balanced from a number of uses perspective (damn utility powers), early use of dailies isn't crippling, and basically makes you a 3.5e Sorcerer instead of a 3.5e Wizard.

By the way, I'd be careful of using power surge options. I think they should require healing surges, a separate action (not just part of an at-will), and only restore the encounter mana pool.

Another mana method: you start with 3 points in each mana pool. You gain 2 mana for the encounter pool every time you would gain an extra use of an encounter power (I think 3, 7, and 13), 2 mana for the daily pool every time you would gain an extra use of a daily power, and 1 mana for the daily pool every time you would gain an encounter power. There are only two rules for costs. #1: Attack powers cost 2 mana points from the appropriate pool, and utility powers cost 1 from the appropriate pool (other stuff might also cost 1 mana point, see below). #2: If you use a daily power, it also costs 1 mana from the encounter pool. The good thing about this system is you can throw in other things, such as item usage or the encounter and daily powers from the multiclass feats (they'd cost 1 from the appropriate pool, or 1 from each if it's a daily power thanks to rule 2).

 

[ameinild]

Thanx for the comments. You have some good points which are being considered for this system. More to come...

Just to clarify: The power surge IS a separate standard action, and gives you 2 mps - while using an at-will power you gain only 1 mp. Our entire purpose with this system was to give the players ability to use more encounter powers, because we found combat was dragging, and you ran out of powers too fast...

Also, divine miracle is described in the Appendix for special powers. As with all other powers that recharge other powers, under this system it gives you mana points instead. In that way, these powers are still very useful, as they're a free mana ressource.

 

[ameinild]

Damn, double...

 

[Zelc]

Again, I'm really worried about using at-will powers to recharge your mana pool. I'd recommend some other way of shortening combat instead, like damage to bloodied creatures being increased by 1/2 * level.

I like the expanded power selection rule. More options is good .

Here's how I'd do the mana system:
Encounter Mana Pool
Lvl 01: 4
Lvl 03: 5
Lvl 05: 6
Lvl 07: 7
Lvl 09: 8
Lvl 11: 10
Lvl 21: 11

Daily Mana Pool:
Level 01: 2
Level 02: 3
Level 05: 5
Level 06: 6
Level 09: 8
Level 10: 9
Level 12: 10
Level 16: 11
Level 20: 13
Level 22: 14
Level 26: 16

Encounter attack powers from your class (and PP/EP) cost 2 EMPs. Encounter utility powers from your class cost 1 EMP. Daily attack powers from your class cost 2 DMPs and 1 EMP. Daily utility powers from your class cost 1 DMP and 1 EMP. Encounter multiclass abilities cost 1 EMP. Daily multiclass abilities cost 1 DMP and 1 EMP.
Encounter item powers cost 1 EMP. Daily item powers cost 1 DMP and 1 EMP. Encounter racial powers beyond the first use cost 1 EMP. Daily racial abilities beyond the first use cost 1 DMP and 1 EMP. Powers gained as class features do not cost mana points. When you use a power or ability that costs mana points, you cannot use it again until the end of your next turn.

ETA: DMP can be used in place of EMP. EMP recovers after a short rest, DMP does not.

Once per encounter, you can take a standard action to expend a healing surge and regain no hit points. If you do, you gain 3 encounter mana points.


EDIT: changed some table stuff.
ETA: The hardest thing to balance is the amount of encounter mana points, since so many other things hook into it. At level 11, it basically translates to 4 encounter attack powers and 2x something elses, and at level 21 it's 4 encounter attack powers and 3x something elses. If you have lots of encounter utility powers, this mana system might actually reduce the amount of encounter powers you can use. Still, I'd think the greater flexibility will make up for that deficiency. In fact, the added flexibility might be too good, and the amount of encounter mana points may need to be reduced.
By the way, another bonus of this system is it limits novas. Spending all your daily powers in one combat means you lose 2 encounter attack powers that encounter.

ETA2: Another consideration is encounter utility powers that boost a skill. They should cost some other resource, otherwise they become too powerful. Maybe healing surges?

ETA3: If you allow Wizards to choose from any daily in their spellbook so they don't need to prepare half, would that be too powerful? That feat probably would be, but it could be changed to adding only 1 extra daily every time they pick it?

 

[Stalker0]

I think the changes you made are in the right direction! Its definately a flexible and powerful alternative to core 4e.

My new thoughts:

1) I worry about the competition between dailies and encounters. One of the reason for encounter powers is that they are always there. With this version, I can nova my dailies and then I am completely drained of powers. Or a person might never want to lower their mana pool, and so they never use daily powers. Zelc may be on the right track with seperate pools. Or you might consider greatly increasing the mana cost of daily powers...but drop the permanent loss of mana for the day. In this case, dailies become "super" encounter powers.

2) I still think you make utility powers too cheap compared to other powers, but that's my opinion.

3) Not using the same power twice may be a simple solution to the problem I mentioned before. At high levels a player may alternate between higher and lower level powers to keep using good powers, though they may simply mix between daily and encounters and always use their strongest abilities.