Power retraining question

[Dannyalcatraz]

Simply put: I'm running a Warlock who multiclassed into Psion. The feat that makes him a multiclassed Psion grants a 1st level power. Eventually, this PC will be taking the Dreamwalker Paragon Path (Psion). At 13th and other levels, you are "encouraged" to swap out powers of lower levels with powers of the appropriate level.

For single classed PCs, this process is a no brainer. Likewise for hybrids. For a multiclass PC, however, they have a power sitting there that either is or is not swappable at 13th or higher.

Its perfectly clear he cannot swap a warlock power for a Psion power without a power swap feat. That isn't what I'm asking about.

I'm asking whether that 1st level Psion power gained via the feat can be swapped for a higher level Psion power at 13th level (or whichever would be the appropriate level for that power).

 

[Ryujin]

For the power granted directly by the multi-class feat, I would say no.

 

[Nichwee]

Simply put: I'm running a Warlock who multiclassed into Psion. The feat that makes him a multiclassed Psion grants a 1st level power. Eventually, this PC will be taking the Dreamwalker Paragon Path (Psion). At 13th and other levels, you are "encouraged" to swap out powers of lower levels with powers of the appropriate level.

For single classed PCs, this process is a no brainer. Likewise for hybrids. For a multiclass PC, however, they have a power sitting there that either is or is not swappable at 13th or higher.

Its perfectly clear he cannot swap a warlock power for a Psion power without a power swap feat. That isn't what I'm asking about.

I'm asking whether that 1st level Psion power gained via the feat can be swapped for a higher level Psion power at 13th level (or whichever would be the appropriate level for that power).

No you can not.
The power-swaps as you level up specifically state that you swap a similar usage ability for each other - i.e. You swap out a low level Encounter Attack Power of your class for a higher level one of your class.
Your multi-class feat does not give you an Encounter Attack Power - it gives you an Encounter Power to use an "At-Will Attack Power" from another class. As the power you are given access to is an "At-Will" it can't be swapped out for a higher level one.
As such you only get access to Psion powers via feats that give you such and you abide by any restrictions they impose - so the MC feat says you get a Level 1 power, you can only take a Level 1 power and it is not available for power replacement from leveling - as it is not from your class (MC lets you count as a Psion for Feats, PP and EDs - not for leveling* and the leveling power swaps for higher level are restricted to "your class").

*Otherwise you could argue you should get the HP increase of your MC too (which would make MC Fighter a really good idea for a wizard). Your class hasn't changed and leveling only involves leveling your class powers not MC powers - even if you could swap a Level 1 At-Will Attack Power for a non-level 1 At-Will Attack Power (which is possible when actually leveling as a Psion rather than leveling as a Warlock who happens to have a Psion MC iirc).

 

[Ferghis]

...and the leveling power swaps for higher level are restricted to "your class").

While this makes a lot of sense, I'd like to see a page source for this, since I don't remember the restriction in the text.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Your multi-class feat does not give you an Encounter Attack Power - it gives you an Encounter Power to use an "At-Will Attack Power" from another class.

You have that backwards.

Plus, what difference does that make? I'm not saying the new, higher level power would be free of the strictures of the feat- it would still be usable as an Encounter power only...and in this case, still not Augmentable.

Nichwee
...and the leveling power swaps for higher level are restricted to "your class").

While this makes a lot of sense, I'd like to see a page source for this, since I don't remember the restriction in the text.

Exactly why I asked.

Also, while the multiclassing feats do not change your PC's class, they DO add one to your PC. For all other intents and purposes- besides this one in all probability- you qualify for feats, (most) Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies of the additional class.

While not allowing this power swap makes a modicum of sense, it isn't codified into the actual mechanics, near as I can tell. The core question is does it really matter which power gets boosted by level advancement when only one power will get that treatment?

 

[Ryujin]

You have that backwards.

Plus, what difference does that make? I'm not saying the new, higher level power would be free of the strictures of the feat- it would still be usable as an Encounter power only...and in this case, still not Augmentable.



Exactly why I asked.

Also, while the multiclassing feats do not change your PC's class, they DO add one to your PC. For all other intents and purposes- besides this one in all probability- you qualify for feats, (most) Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies of the additional class.

While not allowing this power swap makes a modicum of sense, it isn't codified into the actual mechanics, near as I can tell. The core question is does it really matter which power gets boosted by level advancement when only one power will get that treatment?

I would argue that as they've been given by a multi-class feat these abilities are "class features", which explicitly can't be retrained (PHB page 28; upper right corner). They are also 'extra' powers that in my mind it would violate RAI, to be able to take such undue advantage of.

 

[nightwyrm]

You have that backwards.

Plus, what difference does that make? I'm not saying the new, higher level power would be free of the strictures of the feat- it would still be usable as an Encounter power only...and in this case, still not Augmentable.



Exactly why I asked.

Also, while the multiclassing feats do not change your PC's class, they DO add one to your PC. For all other intents and purposes- besides this one in all probability- you qualify for feats, (most) Paragon Paths, and Epic Destinies of the additional class.

While not allowing this power swap makes a modicum of sense, it isn't codified into the actual mechanics, near as I can tell. The core question is does it really matter which power gets boosted by level advancement when only one power will get that treatment?

You know how the fighter MC feat lets you mark once an encounter or the ranger MC feat lets you quarry once an encounter, that's what this is for the psion MC feat (it's the same for the wizard MC feat as well). Since controllers don't have their own "controller mechanic", they just give you an at-will for an encounter as a substitute instead.

You don't get to retrain the fighter's "mark once in a encounter", you don't get to retrain your psion lv 1 power.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I would argue that as they've been given by a multi-class feat these abilities are "class features", which explicitly can't be retrained (PHB page 28; upper right corner).

I think that's a bit of a stretch. If you look at the kinds of powers that are class features vs the ones granted by multiclassing feats, there's a clear difference: most (not all) of the latter are AWs that you are free to choose from all of the new class' AWs. The former are, generally speaking, not swappable even for a single-classed members of the class.

 

[Ryujin]

I think that's a bit of a stretch. If you look at the kinds of powers that are class features vs the ones granted by multiclassing feats, there's a clear difference: most (not all) of the latter are AWs that you are free to choose from all of the new class' AWs. The former are, generally speaking, not swappable even for a single-classed members of the class.

Hardly as much of a stretch as you might think.

You can’t replace a power that’s a class feature (such as a cleric’s healing word or a warlock’s eldritch blast) or a power gained from a paragon path or epic destiny.

One of the Warlock multi-class feats gives you Eldritch Blast as an encounter power. There are other, similar examples. You are giving yourself features from another class.

*EDIT* I call that demonstrative of a concept.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

And even a single-classed Warlock cannot swap Eldritch Blast for a higher-level attack power, but can swap other low-level powers. My counterpoint stands.