Practiced Spellcaster Breaks D20

[Malimar]

I just fielded this question...

This question just came up last week in my game.

I had a new PC come in, Mystic Theurg with cleric and wizard (what a bookkeeping nightmare with prepared spells... I salute my player for tackling it).

He wanted to use Practiced Spellcaster, but I nixed it. I do agree that multiclassed spellcasters are significantly weaker in the spellcasting department than a single class caster. I kind of miss the days when I would see an elven fighter/mage/thief (1E & 2E staples). But in 3.x, you don't have many spells if you multiclass, and they're not very powerful. 1E/2E multiclass spellcasters would have a 2-3 level drop in their spellcasting abilities.

Don't get me wrong... multiclassing in spellcaster isn't totally useless in 3.x. One of my favorite NPC's is a rogue/sorcerer who uses her spells to augment her rogue abilities (invisibility, knock, etc...) but she's not going to be blasting anybody with fireballs.

I guess I nixed Practiced Spellcaster mostly because it was a feat. You got a lot for just a feat. The +1 in caster level bonus from the Mystic Theurg prestige class is more powerful, but you have to devote a whole class level to that. To gain effective caster levels (even without the extra spells per level) with just a feat I felt was too benefitial for the price.

- Malimar

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I guess I nixed Practiced Spellcaster mostly because it was a feat. You got a lot for just a feat...I felt was too benefitial for the price.

Do you allow your barbarians to pick up Power Attack? Because if you do, you aren't being consistent here.

 

[Malimar]

Power Attack

Do you allow your barbarians to pick up Power Attack? Because if you do, you aren't being consistent here.

Power Attack has the benefit of increased damage not only at the cost of a feat, but also the sacraficed loss in attack bonus.

In Practiced Spellcaster the price of increased caster level is only offset by the purchase of the feat itself.

If you were a multiclassed spellcaster, why wouldn't you take Practiced Spellcaster?

But if you were a barbarian that didn't specialize in doing damage (yeah, a rare breed, but possible; say a barbarian that was a good woodsman/tracker) then you might not want to take Power Attack.

I usually find that if the answer to the "Woudn't you always take it?" is "yes". Then it's probably got a little too much power.

- Malimar

 

[Thanee]

In Practiced Spellcaster the price of increased caster level is only offset by the purchase of the feat itself.

There is a huge price to pay, that is you have to take levels in another class in order to have any benefit. A single class cleric or wizard would have absolutely no benefit from Practiced Spellcaster.

Still, the feat does not give you the lost spell levels, which is the biggest price you pay there. It only gives you a decent caster level for your remaining spells, so they work better under the system, especially when it comes to SR and general effectiveness.

If you were a multiclassed spellcaster, why wouldn't you take Practiced Spellcaster?

I think you didn't get the point of the feat.

Practiced Spellcaster is not a feat like most others. It is specifically meant to help multiclassed spellcasters to work well under the 3rd edition system, which more than necessary punishes them for multiclassing. Practiced Spellcaster is there to reduce this excessive penalty.

The designers have realized this, and Practiced Spellcaster is the solution to this problem.

By nixing it, you emphasize the excessive penalties of multiclassing for spellcasters.

I usually find that if the answer to the "Woudn't you always take it?" is "yes". Then it's probably got a little too much power.

...or is meant to correct something, which is wrong, as in this case...

Bye
Thanee

 

[pbd]

The name

I think the basis of the feat is in its name "practiced spellcaster". Basically, as you practice, your spallcasting gets more powerful.

A fighter/mage that uses magic frequently should get to be a better spellcaster even if they take their next level in fighter. While they don't get the full benefit of their spellcasting class (and shouldn't) there should be a mechanic to increase ther relative casting level.

With the feat they get no additional spells, but just increase spell duration, damage dice, etc and very importantly, their ability to overcome spell resistance.

pbd

 

[Victim]

I think the idea that "if everyone wants to take X, then X is broken" is being misinterpreted. How many reach weapon guys don't take combat reflexes? How many 2 hander users go without Power Attack? Do you see many swashbucklers without Weapon Finess? A feat that characters within a certain niche almost universally want isn't necessarily broken, depending on the size of the niche, and its strength. It's not like all spellcasters are jumping on Practice Spellcaster.

Probably the most analogous feat to Practiced Spellcaster is Two Weapon Fighting. Both provide big numerical bonuses, but only to negate otherwise crippling penalties. I believe some wit described Practiced Spell as follows:

Practiced Spellcaster
Requirements: You must suck.

Benefits: You suck less.

 

[Particle_Man]

That nameless wit was me.

I agree that Practised Spellcaster should not be a feat. It should be a bonus class ability, automatically granted to every spell-casting class at the first class level of that class. Just as Sorcerers should automatically be granted Eschew materials, and Druids should automatically be granted Natural Spell.

And a multiclassed Sorcerer/Druid, with all of those bonus abilities, would STILL suck!

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Practiced Spellcaster
Requirements: You must suck.

Benefits: You suck less.

Now this truly made me laugh out loud.

 

[Particle_Man]

Btw, Mystic Theurge with Practiced Spellcaster (twice) helps, but not as much as people seem to think. Allow me to demonstrate:

“Hi, I am Martin the indecisive! I am a 3rd wizard/3rd cleric with practiced spellcaster in both classes! I can cast my spells as a 6th level caster!”

Walter the Wizard: You suck! I can cast fireball!

Clarence the Cleric: You suck, my son! I can heal more often and better than you.

Later…

“Hi, I am Martin the Mystic Theurge! I am a 3rd wizard/3rd cleric with practiced spellcaster in both classes! And I am a 10th level mystic theurge! I can cast 7th level spells as a 16th level caster!”

Walter the Wizard: Congratulations, you almost don’t quite suck. Tell you what. You can buff the rest of the party while I deal with this demon here. [Casts Greater Planar Binding, or Horrid Wilting, or what have you]. Oh, and get out of the way of Clarissa, my cleric cohort!

Clarence the Cleric: You suck less, my son! Good for you! Please wait while I turn these vampires, and then Cure Critical on the entire party. And then I will try to fix you up. Too bad you don’t have a Holy Aura to shield you from those evil spells! Oh, please get out of the way of Wanda, my wizard cohort.

Martin: No problem! But hey, I still have some spells left! I guess I may not be powerful, but I still have a niche for endurance in casting spells when you guys run out! And, and, I am versatile. I have all these different spells at my command! Huh, isn’t that right guys? [There is a note of pleading in his voice].

Morthos the Warlock (from Complete Arcane): [clears throat] I don’t know how to break this to you gently, but you just lost that niche too. And I am far, far, cooler, by the way. And hands off the staff! It’s one of many that is hand-made by yours truly! Now which scroll spell should I use here, on the off chance that I don’t want to use my infinite supply of invocation power? I made those myself too, by the way. Nice to have “all these different spells at my command”, isn’t it? [a bit snarky, but hey, he is either chaotic or evil or both].

Marin: Nooooooooo! This is the peak of my powers! I go downhill from here! You can’t tell me I still suck! I am doomed to suck worse from here on out! Wait, I’ll get to epic levels. Then I’ll show them. I’ll show them all! [cackles evilly]

 

[Antoine]

Marin: Nooooooooo! This is the peak of my powers! I go downhill from here! [cackles evilly]

Well, when Marin turns Wiz7/Clr3/MTh10, he looks uphill and says to 20th level wizard : "Right, I cast 5 or 6 less spells than you do everyday, but at the same CL, and can even use some heal, resurrection or restoration when needy. Maybe I lost a couple of feats if my cleric domains didn't provide me some extra ones. And all with one practiced spellcaster feat, I'm a match for you, and get about 40+extra cleric spells a day."

Not so much downhill.