PrCs - which ones are (a bit) over the edge?

[pawsplay]

Hit points are almost, but not quite a d6 average for that build. Definately the better caster, but that was never in doubt. However, magical mithril chain shirts give, or perhaps I should say prevent, far more bang for the buck than bracers of armor.

I don't know... my players have taken to wearing bracers of armor WITH mithril armor, as a hedge against incorporeal undead. Personally, I'd rather have a force defense than +1 more AC and maybe 10 energy resistance to something. And no Dex maximum, either.

I still think that the Bladesinger I posted makes an interesting Swashbuckler/Duelist type who augments that with spells rather than a spellcaster who can do some melee. Of course, it could be argued that any finesse melee build (not relying on sneak attack damage) is going to be weak slash a waste of time.

I guess really all I'm saying is that in response to "Bladesingers can be better done better with EK and duelist" is "here's a Bladesinger that I totally want to play"

Well, yeah.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Hit points are almost, but not quite a d6 average for that build. Definately the better caster, but that was never in doubt. However, magical mithril chain shirts give, or perhaps I should say prevent, far more bang for the buck than bracers of armor. I still think that the Bladesinger I posted makes an interesting Swashbuckler/Duelist type who augments that with spells rather than a spellcaster who can do some melee. Of course, it could be argued that any finesse melee build (not relying on sneak attack damage) is going to be weak slash a waste of time.

I guess really all I'm saying is that in response to "Bladesingers can be better done better with EK and duelist" is "here's a Bladesinger that I totally want to play"

The duskblade is a bladesinger would aspire to be.

 

[Feldspar]

I don't know... my players have taken to wearing bracers of armor WITH mithril armor, as a hedge against incorporeal undead. Personally, I'd rather have a force defense than +1 more AC and maybe 10 energy resistance to something. And no Dex maximum, either.

For the cost of Bracers of Armor +8, you could have a +8 mithril shirt giving you an armor bonus of 12. With high Dex and Int scores adding in to your touch attack its going to be fairly respectable as is, but if its really a concern you could still wear (for that cost) a +5 ghost touch mithril shirt and come out 1 point ahead.

Wearing bracers *and* armor, perhaps with some fortification on it, could work - but not for your EK - Duelist build. Even if you work around the Arcane Spell Failure problems, wearing armor of any kind means you no longer get the Int bonus to AC from Duelist. So, my build can actually make better use of armor + bracers than your build

The max dex with mithril chain shirt is a bit of an issue ... but on the other hand, you can always choose instead to start buffing your int. After all, that will also raise your AC *and* damage (thanks to the 3rd level Swashbuckler ability).

 

[Feldspar]

The duskblade is [what] a bladesinger would aspire to be.

NOTE: the [what] was added in by me, I'm assuming that's what was meant

I'd actually say that should be changed to be "The Duskblade is what a Spellsword aspires to be." Channeling spells through their weapon? Check. Casting spells in heavy armor? Check. You see, if I'm playing a Duskblade, I'm not going to care at all about dex - I can use a heavy shield and medium armor. In fact, since I have proficiency with all armors, I can spend just one feat, Battle Caster from Complete Arcane, and cast spells and do all my tricks in Full Plate at 4th level. That's very different, conceptually and style wise from the more swashbuckling style of Bladedancer.

You could decide to play a Duskblade as a finesse fighter, but at some point max dex bonus could become an issue with your armor choice. As I said in another post, the Bladedancer can get AC bonuses from increasing their Int. Using a shield could make up the difference, but then you'll have to apply its armor check penalty to your attack roles as per the rules for Weapon Finesse. I suppose Darkwood will help you out there, but using a shield at all may detract from the swashbuckling style you wanted to exhibit.

Anyway, moving on from the AC issue, lets compare my bladedancer at 20 and a duskblade at 20:
Hit die - both have d8 (the 2d4's and 4d10's in my build average out the same as 6d8)
Saves - duskblade has 12/6/12 and my guy has 12/10/15
Duskblade Attack bonus: +20/+15/+10/+5
Bladedancer Attack Bonus: +19/+14/+9/+4 or +17/+17/+12/+7/+2

Pretty similar. With better saves, more attacks per round and adding Int to damage, I'd say my bladedancer is better than a Duskblade at playing the swashbuckler/musketeer game.

Highest level of spell cast: both can cast 5th level spells, though the Duskblade gets some 6th and even an 8th (!) level arcane spell at this level. Low spell levels are important because that's what sets the save DC. Both would struggle, I think, getting Phantasmal Killer to live up to its name. So both will enjoy no save spells like Melf's Acid Arrow, Enervation and, for the Duskblade, the normally 8th level Polar Ray.

The duskblade has a huge edge in caster level, my guy can only get up to 13 and that's by spending a feat on. That'll be important when that Enervation targets a foe with spell resistance. It also increases the damage of a number of spells (not too many spells on the Duskblades list have a duration, though, so not as big an impact there), especially ones like Chain Lightning and (have I mentioned) Polar Ray.

Okay, so the Duskblade has the ability to throw a large number of spells at the enemy, some of them quite damaging, and can better overcome spell resistance. But that's okay for the Bladesinger, because there's so much the Duskblade *can't* do. He can't teleport the party out of danger, he can't buff the Rogue with Greater Invisibility, he can't cast Displacement or Blur, he can't drop a wall of force/stone/fire/ice down to divide the enemy forces, etc. Sure, the party's main arcane caster can do all that better ... but not once the fight has started. They'll be concentrating on getting the heavy artillery out - the Meteor Swarms, the Disjunctions, the Power Words, etc.

My Bladedancer does look at his one Song of Celerity per day and the Duskblade's four Quick Casts and sheds Elven tears (the sweetest kind) but can take some solace in the fact that, in some ways, his spell Spellsword channeling is better than the Duskblades. "But its only three times per day" you say, "and it requires a move action to cast the spell." Ahh, but you see the difference is in the fine print. The Duskblade can only use this channeling with Touch spells - and really he doesn't have that many of those. Oh, he has a lot of rays - but the fact that a ray attack is made using a ranged touch attack roll does not change its type from "Effect: Ray" to "Range: Touch". So, you're pretty much left channeling Shocking Grasp, Ghoul Touch and Vampiric Touch aren't you? Its still yards better than using a spell storing weapon, of course.

The Spellsword, on the other hand, "can channel any spell he can cast into his melee weapon ... Even if the spell normally affects an area or is ray, it affects only the target." So you could drop an Ice Storm on someone without worrying about hitting your allies. Where it could *really* get interesting is when you use something that has a duration, like Cloudkill. It doesn't say the spell only affects that targets area, it says it "affects only the target". So one could make the argument that it would continue to affect that target for the duration of the spell regardless of target movement

The bladedancer is really a "fifth party member" kind of character. It adds some versatility, melee and magic, and would especially be welcome in a party where the main arcane caster has specialized for blowing stuff up and is playing something like a Warmage, Sorcerer, or Invoker.

 

[Dark Dragon]

Your choice of opponent for the EK feels like a bit of a strawman. A fighter limited to PHB and DMG tends to be pretty dang weak - hence the slew of feats in PHB II that require weapon spec and high BAB's which try to address that. The PHB/DMG also severly hamstrings fighters who just want to kick butt and deal raw damage. After Power Attack, Cleave and a few weapon feats, what the heck do you really want to put your feats into? Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec in another weapon type. Blech.

Very true. But I have to say that the PHB II is not in use IMC. So no way to boost the fighter with some PHB II feats. And I regard WotC's strategy to enhance the fighter with the PHB II a bit poor, to be honest. The reason why I stayed within PHB and DMG is that both classes, fighter and EK, are described in PHB and DMG, respectively. Arcane Strike is the only exception to point out that there is either something wrong with AS or EK or the fighter...

The fact that your EK also has Weapon Focus, Power Attack and Imp Crit highlight the problem. A fighter's main attribute is feats - but there are not trees deep enough or exclusive that only a fighter can make use of them. Instead a fighter gets parallel development - picking up powers at 16th level that they could have had at first level and that have only a minor (balanced at low levels) benefit.

Again, I have to agree. And it shows that the EK is a more flexible, if not to say more powerful class than the fighter. Keep in mind, I just used the core rules.

You've spent four feats and valuable attribute points to end up with Whirlwind Attack - which I don't think is really worth it. The fact that this fighter only has a base 18 in Str also rings alarm bells for me. Modified with the belt and that's a +7 for two handed damage bonus of +10. If he's at all optimized he should really have that up to at least 20 to get the bonus of an even +8 with a +12 bonus to damage. You know, the same way you used the Gauntlets of Ogre Power on the EK to change his bonus damage from +4 to +6.

If you use a 32 point-buy and build a fighter other than a brute half-orc with Str 20 (Str 30 at level 16, including an item +6) and maxed out Con (and low Int, Wis and Cha), then you'll end up with Str 20, maybe 22 in level 16, plus any magic boni.
I tried to built a more versatile fighter, not the cliché-type (see above). Granted, the half-orc thug will dishout more damage than my fighter. But I don't think that it is very funny to play the thug...
As I stayed within the PHB for selecting the feats, whirlwind attack seemed quite ok for me. Another option could be the TWF tree, which I didn't try out. Admittedly, I didn't check if both classes (EK and fighter) got the same point-buy method, but it looked ok.

Anyway, I ran the numbers for your two characters. Note that on crits I'm not multiplying the extra damage from the AS - the same way extra damage from sneak attacks, flaming weapons, etc is not multiplied.

Nice job!

No real difference ... so if you blow a 7th level spell you can equal the damage of a fairly pedestrian melee build. Yes the EK can get buffed ... but those buffs can be dispelled and the fighter can just as easily get buffed by others.

The buffs on the pure fighter can be also dispelled, so there's no real difference here. The main point is that the fighter NEEDS OTHER guys to buff him. The EK does not. A simple haste spell will suffice to outclass the fighter. Enlarge person will grant the EK a big advantage in combat. True Strike is an other nice buff, as is shield for defense. Both spells are personal...
Quickened true strike + charge + maximum PA + AS will deal, according to my EK build, 26 (PA 13, two-handed sword) + 2d6+8 (avg. 15) +7d4 (avg. 17) = 58 damage with an attack bonus of +27+20-13+2 = +36. On a crit (easy to confirm), we get 99 damage against a single target. That needs either a level 5 and a level 7 spell, or, given time, a level 1 and a level 7 spell.
The fighter could try a PA 13 and comes down to 2d6+17+26 = 50 damage, the attack bonus is an awesome +28-13+2 (charge) = +17...

If I compare a fighter and an EK in combat, doing the same combat manoevers (charge or full melee attack), I get the impression that the EK fares better PLUS he could cast nice defensive and/or offensive spells if he wants to stay away from powerful foes.

It makes also clear that the fighter needs backup from spellcasters to shine in combat. There's nothing wrong in that since the party is a team and should work like a team, IMHO. But it makes also clear that the EK could turn into a combat monster without backup, making him good in solo fights. Give him time to prepare, and even his lower hp will not be a big issue (use e.g. stoneskin, shield, displacement, bear's endurance).

 

[Razilin]

i don't see how any of the prcs can be broken. powerful yes, but none of them are invincible, especially if they're out of their element.

i regularly abuse the dervish and abjurant champion; players who try the same in my games and up getting flanked by rogues, grappled, or immobilized--all which negate or hinder many of their abilities (dervish dance, the ability to cast pretty much ANY spell).

i've yet to see a build i can't beat with good, solid tactics.

for the record, dervish should have been called "Drizzt" and the radiant cheese of Pelor needs to die.

 

[wildstarsreach]

I had a talk with our rules lawyer who is a lawyer as well and we agree that the Abjurant champion is definitely broken. Getting full BA, full spell caster progression and really good additional benefits is too much. We both find it too good not to use in both of our characters who are playing multiclass fighter type mages.

 

[Felix]

for the record ... the radiant cheese of Pelor needs to die.

Is there intelligent discourse forthcoming on why you think this is the case, or is "because it's cheese" the extent of your opinion?

 

[The Grackle]

I had a talk with our rules lawyer who is a lawyer as well and we agree that the Abjurant champion is definitely broken. Getting full BA, full spell caster progression and really good additional benefits is too much. We both find it too good not to use in both of our characters who are playing multiclass fighter type mages.

Maybe broken. Probably broken for some crazy builds, but what isn't?

It's a strong class to make up for weak fighter/mage multiclassers who lose high level spells and high BABs. Kinda like how mystic theurge fixes cleric/wizards.

Also their class ability to increase an Abj. spell's armor or shield bonus by their class level only applies to shield, not mage armor (a conjuration) even though it mentions both in the fluff.

This is a GREAT class for a TH fighter-type who takes a level or two in sorcerer for utility/buff spells. But broken?