Pathfinder 1E Prepping for Pathfinder: Council of Thieves (spoilers!)

[billd91]

Hmm. I'll keep that in mind. I've gotten very, very good at fudging combats over the years, so I'll adjust if necessary.

I must say, I'm tempted to give the cleric of the group a wand of align weapon as a gift from Arael. In the break between adventures, the cleric took Craft Wand, and then made a wand of magic missiles (level 5) for the sorcerer and a wand of cure light wounds for himself.

Did they get Sian's handy haversack? It has a scroll of command undead in it. That will answer the triceratops if they haven't used it or sold it already. It's what my players did after the rogue was nearly killed by a crit on the triceratops's attack of opportunity. They used it later for a number of strength-based effects as well.

Council of Thieves has a number of treasures put in it that make subsequent encounters easier or easier to recover from. I've noticed this more in CoT than just about any other adventures I've read other than the G series in 1e.

My players were also investing in silver weapons and silversheen pretty much from the beginning. They started talking like so:

P: "Since Cheliax is dominated by devil worshipers, do there tend to be lots of devils about?"
GM: "Not out on the street every day, but most people you know have heard rumors and urban legends about someone who has faced on."
P: "What do we know about devils?" <rolls know: planes check>
GM: "That beside being evil, they are immune to any fires you know of. They are also more vulnerable to silver weapons than most other weapons. It's why silver weapon treatments are black market in Westcrown."

That was enough for them to start getting at least one each under the table at the local halfling-run armory.

 

[MerricB]

Did they get Sian's handy haversack?

They didn't even meet Sian. I omitted her when the encounter area that should have had her in it failed to mention her at all - despite the original text describing how she's used saying her stats would be there.

By this stage, the group had faced several DR 5 monsters, and we were on our second session in the Knot - all were pretty eager to get out. Incredibly, they walked straight to the end and bypassed some nasty monsters. Sian *should* have turned up, but didn't.

As a DM, I'm not particularly fond of running non-keyed encounters in any case. A creature that runs away after you encounter it and poses an ongoing threat? Sure! But having an assassin that attacks only when you want it to? That's very much "DM screwing the players" territory, and I dislike that style of play.

Cheers!

 

[billd91]

They didn't even meet Sian. I omitted her when the encounter area that should have had her in it failed to mention her at all - despite the original text describing how she's used saying her stats would be there.

Her haversack was actually left with the dead elf body they encounter right after entering the knot, if I remember correctly.

 

[MerricB]

Her haversack was actually left with the dead elf body they encounter right after entering the knot, if I remember correctly.

Ah - you're right. They did get it then.

EDIT: The Fifth Session:
The party had rested at the end of last session, but we discussed as we resumed this session whether or not they actually could rest: wouldn't sneaking out through the mayor's home be difficult afterwards? A quick scan of the adventure revealed another way out, so I informed the players that they could rest; it'd be okay. I didn't want a TPK if I could avoid one, and they needed the rest!

Everyone was here for this session. Hooray!

So, to recap: the group were going through a demiplane looking for the Cheliax Crux, an item that information vital(!) to their overall quest of ridding the shadow beasts from Westcrown.

More Stairs
There should have been a really big encounter here with a tiefling shadowdancer who had been sent into the Knot by the BBEG to release the imprisoned pit fiend, but due to a massive error in editing in the book, the reference in the encounter area to her presence was absent and I completely forgot about her. So, instead the party made their way through a shifting maze of stairs which sounds awesome... but actually isn't. It's rather dull, actually, because the path through the stairs is set and easy to follow once the party got onto them. Sigh.

The group then completely walked by another potential (and needless) encounter. Go team!

Instead, they discovered the way out, and that, because they had some of the soul objects, they could use it to get home. All that remained was to get the Big Bad of this adventure and take the Cheliax Crux.

The Big Bad
That Big Bad happened to to be The Outcast King: a devil/otyugh hybrid. And completely overpowered for taking on my group.

AC 18, hp 63, +8/+3 (1d8+6/17-20) and +7 (1d8+2/19-20) and +5 (1d8+2) and +5/+5 (1d6+2), reach 10'; DR 5/good or silver, SR 16

Yep, that's right: SIX attacks per turn, with the first three giving infernal wounds (2 bleed, and can't be healed except with DC 16 caster check). I happily ignored most of the monster's nastier traits and even then almost destroyed Michael's rogue - who was the only one who could hit it effectively. Eventually, Lee's high-AC cleric got into combat with it and - though he couldn't hurt it - he could distract it enough until Tim's magic missile spells started working.

Let's get this clear: at this point, the PCs should be level 5. My group was level 4 (because they'd bypassed a lot of encounters). It's potentially not too deadly for a group with silver weapons, but it was horrible for my group. Not enjoying this type of monster.

With it defeated, they took all its treasure (including the Crux) and used the magic doors to return home.

At the end of the adventure, I made certain that everyone knew they needed silver weapons for this AP. The group returned to Westcrown, and we continued immediately with the next adventure. Well, after we spent some time levelling the PCs up to 5th level.

What Came Before...
The heroes had been recruited into the Children of Westcrown - now renamed the Rebel Alliance - to help overthrow the corrupt government of Westcrown. First they began to do good deeds: dealing with the bandit group the Children of Erebus was a good start.

Then, the group was approached by a Pathfinder Society member who wanted to explore Delvehaven, the old Pathfinder lodge (but couldn't) and believed there was a link between the sealing of Delvehaven and the Shadow Beasts plaguing Westcrown. If the PCs could investigate?

However, crucial information on the wards defending Delvehaven needed to be discovered first (and the Pathfinder also wanted to know the exact details of House Thrune's interest in Delvehaven), and that could be found only in the Cheliax Crux, a magic storage box found in the Mayor's mansion. The group became actors to secure an invitation to the Mayor's mansion, and then braved the Asmodean Knot to recover the Crux. Now, with the Crux in hand they needed to actually open it...

The Opening of the Crux
Unfortunately, Paizo managed to completely muck up how to open the Crux. They gave a brute force method (which we actually used successfully, and quickly) and a skill check method, needing a DC 35 Disable Device roll. Hmm. Admittedly, a +7 bonus can be gained, but with the trap going off it's still a lot of rolling. What's a normal thief's Disable Device at 5th level? Oh, about +12...

I just let Greg at it. After they discovered the fire trap the first time, Lee cast Resist Fire on Greg, and though he still took some damage, he brute-cracked the sixteen letter key to open the crux in about 5 minutes of real time. It was impressive.

What was in the Crux was less than impressive. What were they looking for? Information on the wards of Delvehaven and why the House of Thrune was interested in it. Well, there was nothing on the latter, and for the former, there was the animated head of an erinyes, who (if the party could put up with her screaming) she could tell them if brought into a room of Delvehaven about the wards and guardians there. Unfortunately, my players got so sick of her within a few seconds of meeting her that she was put back into the Crux, never again to reemerge. They never learned that she could be "helpful".

They didn't miss anything: Khazrae actually has nothing useful to say in Delvehaven: all the "traps" she knows about aren't dangerous and are easily overcome by the party, except for the triceratops - and they can't avoid that one, nor does she know what has occurred to it. So, basically, what they find in the crux is not what they were looking for.

Except, of course, for information on five missing Pathfinders, plus some grave candles that will allow the group to talk to them - if they can find part of their remains...

Luckily for the group, the notes give a very, very good idea of where their remains can be found. For some reason, they were never found by the mayor of Thrune who wrote these notes (which seems extremely unlikely, but anyway...)

The group first decided to pay a visit to the Sisterhood of Eiseth.

Massacre House
The Sisterhood lived in a crematorium, and held the ashes of one of the Pathfinders. They didn't want to talk to the PCs, being erinyes-worshippers, so the PCs forced their way in, and first battled a sister and her pet Fire Elemental. Magic Missile was a big factor in the death of the elemental.

After that, the group were attacked in force by the other five sisters in residence, as they'd been alerted by the screams of the first sister. Level 4 monks didn't prove that much of a threat to the group, and soon all the sisters were dead.

Down below, the group - one of whom could speak Infernal - could quickly find and retrieve the ashes. So they did, and we ended the session there.

 

[MerricB]

Well, we've played another session of our somewhat erratic Pathfinder game, and here are a few highlights. Or lowlights:

The Wave Door
The group began by finding the Wave Door (easily - natural 20 on the check). Well, it was easy after the Pathfinder NPC explained the riddle to them because No-One Could Understand It Especially As There Wasn't A Riddle Handout. They turned the shadows guarding it (not before 7 strength damage to two PCs), grabbed the items, and oohed and aahed over the stuff. And learnt something from the scrolls. Good things.

And then...

The Arena of Summoning - or We Didn't Playtest This
Actually, we might be able to call this module, "The One They Didn't Playtest At All", because there is no damn way they playtested the Arena of Summoning encounter. Not with an actual summoner.

The encounter - as written - has one (5th level) PC squaring off against a 7th level summoner. They both can cast summon spells - as many as they like as long as they all summon the same creature - and other spells to enhance their minions. The other PCs can shout encouragement (bonuses to AC or Attack), or cast enhancement spells as well. The fight ends when all the summoned monsters on one side are dead.

It sounds fine as an encounter... except when you start comparing the levels of what's going on. The opponent starts by summoning d4+1 Lemures. Then casts haste, then d4+1 Lemures, d3 Lemures, d3 Lemures and finally 1 Lemure. So, 12 Lemures against whatever our caster could come up with... who is fifth level. Level 1 creatures aren't going to cut it at all, so you're looking at basically being able to summon d3+d3+3 "Lemure-level" creatures in reply. Against hasted Lemures. With Damage Reduction 5/good or silver.

Tim, who plays our Level 5 Sorcerer who has Summon Monster I and Summon Monster II - and is playing his first Pathfinder game - led of with summoning an Air Elemental. 1d4+1 damage, which can't hurt the Lemures. Smart. At this point, I asked him if he wanted to rethink his choice, and we went into a discussion about how summon monster works, and eventually we settled on... err, something celestial. We represented them with spiders on the board, so I keep thinking "celestial spiders", but in actual fact they were celestial hyenas.

So, four uses of creating one Celestial Hyena. How would they survive? By having Lee's cleric cast Protection from Evil on them. Yes, it meant that the lemures couldn't touch the warded hyenas at all, as long as the hyenas didn't attack. I was very kind to the party, and had the protection lapse only[/] for the creature it attacked. So, we got the hyenas going one-on-one with selected Lemures.

Mind you, as the combat dragged on, I began to wonder about this encounter. What happened if the PCs failed? (No mention in the text, and if I hadn't been kind, they certainly would have failed it). There was text saying that if the monster vanished, the round was a draw and it had to restart. Only one monster? But the villain is summoning d4+1 of these things! There's no way that the PC's monsters can kill them all, so what happens?

There's an option for one of the PCs to fight the summoned monsters rather than the PC summoning them - I expect that would have been a lot more fun, but it plays against the intent if the party actually has a summoner in it.

We talk to the Pathfinders... and they Know Nothing
After all of that, the party interviewed the spirits of the dead pathfinders that they'd recovered the remains of - all two of them. Unfortunately, those pathfinders couldn't tell them much about Delvehaven, especially the one who apparently was in charge of sealing it down. Was it too much to expect for such details to be included in the "what they say" section? Apparently so.

Ghaelfin says:
"When Delvehaven was sealed, lodge wizards laced the halls with magical traps and activated several guardians. Ghaelfin did not pay much attention to the details, but Coriana knows more, if the PCs can recover her remains."

Coriana says:
"..."

Traps and guardians? I know nothing about them!

Both Ghaelfin and Coriana do give a few good points of info, but most of the important info was found in the wave door (and the PCs are now aware of the possibility of a vampire enemy). Weak writing and editing? You bet!

And then... Delvehaven
We had half-an-hour left then, so it was just going into the opening part of Delvehaven, which has all these stasis-globe traps in the grounds marked with "T"s... except there isn't a single trap marked on the map.

The stasis-traps are pretty lame as presented, so I was happy to leave them out, but really, Paizo? You can't put the traps on the map?

The actual description of the interior of Delvehaven was pretty evocative and the players and I were happy for it. The group explored the upper level before exploring all of the ground level, and managed to avoid releasing a magically-trapped creature, instead destroying the decayed jungle-bridge by trying to cross it. (Not a good idea, but Dave's halfling monk survived the experience). They then went back down to the first of the libraries, where they all experienced (and chose not the resist) the Books of Memories.

This was one of the highlights of the adventure for us, as each character picked a different book and absorbed its awakened memories. (Which mostly translated to some minor adjustments to saves and skills). There's a great role-playing opportunity for the right players here, although I doubt this group will take advantage of it. We finished the session there, with the group happy at their latest find.

The overall story so far has been entertaining, and there have been a lot of nice encounters... but some of it has required a lot of DM rewriting. I insulate the PCs from most of the more stupid bits of the adventure - although not enough from the Summoner Fight, which is DUMB, DUMB, DUMB! I feel I'm harsher on these ones than Wizards (which aren't that great) mainly because Paizo has such a high reputation when it comes to adventures. I'm hoping to see a good one soon.

I've warned the players that there is a TPK fight coming up (I intend to let them have it, then redo it against a fair monster), and that should probably occur this week, as we continue our trek through What Lies In Dust. (Paizo's reputation, mainly).

 

[Crothian]

Sounds cool. I'm one book behind you at this point. We do the play this Thursday. One player thought of a great idea to save the female NPC. They are going to poison her so she can't do the play. I think it is a good idea and one of course the book doesn't even consider.

For the Mayor's party I'm adding in three NPCs. There will be the head priest of Asmedeus, an important Hellknight, and a famous explorer. It should be fun but I'm changing more then you it seems and adding in lots of smaller details and plots.

 

[billd91]

So, four uses of creating one Celestial Hyena. How would they survive? By having Lee's cleric cast Protection from Evil on them. Yes, it meant that the lemures couldn't touch the warded hyenas at all, as long as the hyenas didn't attack. I was very kind to the party, and had the protection lapse only[/] for the creature it attacked. So, we got the hyenas going one-on-one with selected Lemures.

I believe that's how protection from evil is supposed to work. The ward breaks against any creature [singular] you attack. Not all of them at once for attacking a single one. The party monk, when I ran this, ultimately made mince meat of the lemures when he faced them in the pit (we didn't have a summoner, just a witch who didn't invest heavily in monster summoning spells).
This is one of those encounters described in the 3.5 DMG as being fairly tough without a particular key to solving it, a lot easier with that key.

Mind you, as the combat dragged on, I began to wonder about this encounter. What happened if the PCs failed? (No mention in the text, and if I hadn't been kind, they certainly would have failed it).

Same thing, presumably, they'd do if they were impatient:

Impatient PCs can, of course, use stealth or magic to secure access to the old statue, but doing so robs them of an opportunity to build a bit more fame.

 

[MerricB]

For the Mayor's party I'm adding in three NPCs. There will be the head priest of Asmedeus, an important Hellknight, and a famous explorer. It should be fun but I'm changing more then you it seems and adding in lots of smaller details and plots.

When I run adventures like this - especially when I'm running two other campaigns - I try to stick as close to the actual printed adventures as I can.

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

I believe that's how protection from evil is supposed to work.

The text in question is quite ambiguous:
"The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature."

The first part of the sentence ("the protection") indicates it's the entire ward that fails, the last part ("the blocked creature") indicates it's just against that creature. This is an artefact of the 3E/3.5E wording that hasn't been changed.

Cheers!

 

[Crispy Critter]

I don't think I've ever sat at a PFS table or played in a home game where it was ever interpreted as the whole spell fails against all summoned creatures if just one creature is attacked. In fact the rule I don't think has ever been debated in any games I've played.

My group did not have a mage that could summon monsters either. But they did have a rage-filled half-orc barbarian buffed to the gills. Worked out well enough.

As an aside. They also pooled all their gold and bet on themselves getting pretty good odds. Needless to say they were quite rich afterwards as well.