"Prestige Caster" -Casters as Prestige Classes

[Sound of Azure]

Land Outcast

After absorbing your post a little, I'm interested in how your system pans out in play.
I have a few questions:

1) What happens to the bonus feats from Fighter levels (you mention the hit die based feats, but not these)? When Fighter levels drop below 4, is the character no longer able take weapon specialisation?

2) How about class features from other classes? Do they suddenly forget how to sneak attack, uncannily dodge, or lay on hands?

Or are these things part of the sacrifice? Not intended as a criticism, I just think it needs more explanation, as the idea fascinates me.

 

[Land Outcast]

Heh, no offense taken!

In fact I was wondering the same thing... What do you think?

asap as I can post extensively I'll do so...

 

[Sound of Azure]

Well, I don't think I could use it as it stands alongside the ideas above, but certainly it is a good adjunct to the PHBII retraining rules.

It's a good suggestion, as I am wary of reducing spellcasting to very low power, nor make it too unattractive to players (as I have a dedicated player of wizards in my group, and his apprentice (heh) ).

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The idea is that magic is powerful! These people deal with spirits on a daily basis, live strange lives, and are supposed to be respected and/or feared by the general populance. And... it takes training. PCs in my game start off as relative neophytes, so I'm aiming to have that respect and important position earned. Wizards essentially being "wise folk", is a staple of legend and fiction, something I'd really like to capture.

Hopefully something I can capture.

On a side note, was there a d20 Modern advanced class that cast magic? I seem to recall hearing something about that somewhere. Perhaps in Urban Arcana? (No one I know has the books, though)

 

[EricNoah]

I love the idea of ministers who are simply Experts that have focused on Knowledge: Religion and Profession: Minister and so forth, and then can be ushered into the higher calling of a spellcasting priest. Same deal with Experts who have studied Arcana, Spellcraft, Alchemy, The Planes, languages, etc. and then can start casting arcane spells. I don't know how to balance that with the non-spellcasting classes, though.

 

[Sound of Azure]

Yeah, absolutely Eric

I have a friend who recently entered a nunnery, where she'll undergo several years of training to become a sister in her chosen order. It's a hard path, it woud seem.

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It is going to be hard to balance, but I think I'll go with a faster progression of spellcasting than usual.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Not too sure about using a skill as replacement for BAB... (then again, with Telekinesis, you use caster level... hmmm)

That's sort of the point; BAB seems to represent something like generalized weapon training, but what does that have to do with aiming a spell? Even tying it to DEX is a bit iffy, especially if you view magic as a more chaotic system (tapping energy from the Weave, etc.) So, it always seemed sort of ridiculous that a Ftr 19/Wiz 1 would be more effective with a low-level ray than a Wiz 20 would. Ergo, a class skill that replaces attack rolls. (CHA-based, incidentally, although you could tweak that.)

3) Are you referring to Arcane Spell Failure here? Or perhaps the Druid restriction on armour?

Both, really. If players don't decide whether or not to take a casting class until after a half-dozen levels have passed, there's more of a possibility of having picked low-level classes/Feats/skills in a way that conflicts with what they'd later decide. A 3E Ftr/Wiz wouldn't bother with heavy armor, but a level 4 or 5 pure Fighter might not be thinking ahead to the point where he'd start taking Wizard levels.
It's not a big deal for those of us who plan our characters out ten levels in advance, but for those people who level up on a more spur-of-the-moment basis, it's important not to get railroaded.

 

[Quartz]

Just a thought, but instead of delaying spellcasting so much, how about delaying the advancement instead? You could do this by mandating multi-classing for the first N levels such that no more than half the levels can be in a spellcasting class and that you cannot take the same class two levels running.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Just a thought, but instead of delaying spellcasting so much, how about delaying the advancement instead? You could do this by mandating multi-classing for the first N levels such that no more than half the levels can be in a spellcasting class and that you cannot take the same class two levels running.

I'd really, REALLY recommend against this. Restricting what the player will do down the road (i.e., railroading) tends to be EXTREMELY unpopular with most players. Even if it's effectively the same as saying "Caster classes don't count with respect to Favored Class", and even if in the long run it's the same as requiring a couple non-caster class levels first, it FEELS different to the players. A player should have more options as they level up, not fewer.

That being said, it's not an unworkable concept. How about this:

Each magic prestige class requires THREE Feats, which the player takes as he gets closer to the casting level. Each feat unlocks a bit of low-level casting.

Talent I is a Feat has no requirements and gives a little cantrip-level ability. Pick three cantrips/orisons for one spellcasting class, and you can cast them 2/day. (Since Psionics no longer has cantrip-level abilities, use the existing feat Wild Talent instead)
(This is the one I use already to unlock my PrCs.)

Talent II is a Feat that requires Talent I and 4 ranks of a related Knowledge skill, depending on which caster class you picked for Talent I (religion, nature, arcana, or psionics). It gives the remainder of the 1st-level cantrip ability; Wizards/Druids/Clerics know all cantrips/orisons and can cast 3/day, Sorcerers know 4 cantrips and cast 5/day, Psions get 2 PP (but no bonus for INT) and knows two 1st-level powers.

Talent III is a Feat that requires Talent II and 8 ranks of the Knowledge skill. It gives the remainder of 1st-level spellcasting (the 1st-level spell slots, the remaining known spells, and bonuses for prime stat).

After taking three Feats, the character casts spells exactly as if he were a 1st-level caster, even though he hasn't taken levels in any "caster" classes. Humans could enter a PrC at level 6 (8 skill ranks requires 5 non-caster levels), other races would have to wait until level 7 (three Feats requires 6 non-caster levels). All you have to do then is shift the casting ability up one level; that is, the first level of the Wizard PrC combines the spellcasting of a level 2 Wizard (2 first-level spells, 4 cantrips) with the other 1st-level benefits of the Wizard class (Familiar, Scribe Scroll).

The idea is, this avoids the "Magic Missile" issue by letting the player have that ability relatively early (level 3), at a time when it'd still be useful. And, it lets them ease into the class a bit more. I'm sure it needs a bit more balance, of course, but if you combine it with the Focus/Manifestation skill concept I mentioned before, you'd probably end up with something balanced.

 

[Sravoff]

[threadjack]

Idea here...

Can you release this system to the rest of us by chance? I would really liek to see it.[/threadjack]

I think the modern classes used wizard spell progressions, and were accessible at level three, or perhaps four.