Prestige Classes being Privilages?

[DDK]

I definitely agree that PrC's should be looked on as privaledges and not a right that the player has to demand of the DM.

They should require a significant input from the player through adventure, research, questing or whatever.

I would even go so far as to say that a player can't even request out of game for one. That only gives the expectation that it will be given at the appropriate time, regardless of what is done in game.

Roleplaying should be the key to unlocking the doors overlooking the vistas of PrC's!

Anyway, I've always thought that the movie, 'The Mask of Zorro' was an EXCELLENT example of how one would gain the Duellist PrC.

 

[Xarlen]

Whooow. The player shouldn't even be allowed to ask for it OOC?

That's harsh, especially when some PrCs require strict pre-reqs, so the PC has to plan ahead for it atleast in choosing feats and skills.

Like I said, there are some PrCs that you just Don't simply 'find someone to train you'. Look at the Undead Hunter PrC from Dragon. The person has to A) Cast clerical spells, and B) lost a level to a draining undead.

You don't go 'Hey, I'm going to pick a fight with a Wight so I can get this PrC'. You need to talk to your DM.

Look at that PrC from Song and Silence; the spider-rogue one. You enter that by picking up a magical item and making it work. Not much for an organization there.

 

[DDK]

You don't go 'Hey, I'm going to pick a fight with a Wight so I can get this PrC'. You need to talk to your DM.

Actually that's what I have found DOES happen when PC's know what they want and expect to get it. That is the antithesis of roleplaying, IMO, and I refuse to reward it in my games.

One thing a lot of people forget in medieval settings is that information is a premium commodity. A town more than a few days walk away from a city doesn't know jack about what's happening in the city except for what is passed on through travellers. It must also be remebered that travelling was a luxury or a necessity for the poor. The entire concept of adventuring is... alien.

So how the hell does the PC know about 'The Secret Mystical Order of the Whosiwhatsits'? Without knowing about them, how can they begin to learn the prerequisites? Working towards a PrC in this fashion is metagaming of the worst kind.

If a player finds out, through his character whilst roleplaying, that there is a Secret Mystical Order, and begins to investigate it, eventually stumbling upon an affiliate who reveals the location of one of their meeting halls, and then observes a strangely garbed monk rap a series of knocks on a seemingly innocuous door in an alleyway, and then he imitates that process to gain entry, and then discovers a ritualistic society of magic-users who seek to preserve the magic of the Whosiwhatsits, and approaches one of the members after the ritual and admits his identity but also asks for acceptance into the order... THEN he can begin to work towards the PrC.

At least, that's my opinion on how it should work.

 

[Storm Raven]

One thing a lot of people forget in medieval settings is that information is a premium commodity. A town more than a few days walk away from a city doesn't know jack about what's happening in the city except for what is passed on through travellers. It must also be remebered that travelling was a luxury or a necessity for the poor. The entire concept of adventuring is... alien.

Fantasy settings are not medieval. The introduction of working magic, tangible monsters, actual divine power and a host of other elements makes extrapolating from our history to the fictional situation of a typical D&D campaign setting an excercise in futility.

 

[Xarlen]

Then that sort've Screws the player, doesn't it? 'Well, I did all this work to find out about them, and it turns out I can't get in because I don't have x ranks in this skill, or this feat chain. THANKS'.

For characters like Sorcerors, feats and skills are precious comodities.

I'm all for roleplaying, but that's a hell of a lot of work, on both the part of the DM AND the player. I would think that the Secret Order of the Whatashosits has a little more screening process then 'anyone who happens to sneak in'. The Cabal of the Whooderdoms may have to find the next entry student, the one with potential, not the other way around. So it depends on YOU too. Not every 'Organization' is going to be right.

And then there's the potential they want to find out about things that you don't even allow. Or you present organizations they have no interest in. People have an idea of what their character wants to be. Unless it strikes them mid game 'Hey, my character is starting to really hate undead; can I be a Hunter of the Undead?'.

 

[Tonguez]

That Xarlen is why I use rewards other than XP - if a Player has roleplayed something well and used a skill innovatively then they will get bonus skill points which can be used to get those PrC prereqs. - say a PrC needs +8 Tumble and the PC only has +2 well I'm going to give him a +4 Tumble bonus if he's played the encounter with the Acrobat' out well. If he needs the Improved Super Duper Skill Enhancer Feat and doesn't have it - then that Feat is no longer a Prereq of the PrC it is one of its class abilities (taken when the next feat is gained) ...

 

[cofbaron]

Like I said, there are some PrCs that you just Don't simply 'find someone to train you'. Look at the Undead Hunter PrC from Dragon. The person has to A) Cast clerical spells, and B) lost a level to a draining undead.

You don't go 'Hey, I'm going to pick a fight with a Wight so I can get this PrC'. You need to talk to your DM.

I had a character who was aiming towards Hunter of the Dead (it's from Defenders of the Faith, I'm guessing it's a renamed version of the one you mention). One adventure, we had an encounter with a vampire spawn, and ended up getting in a fight with it. Considering my character had a combination serious hate/fear of most undead, she was throwing spells at it left and right, but wasn't rushing in to attack it hand to hand. My DM commented afterwards that she was a bit surprised/impressed that I didn't do that, but I was just being in character; her strength was in spellcasting, and thus she had no reason whatsoever to get in melee combat with it.

In this instance, I had let my DM know that the character was working towards the PrC ahead of time; it fit with the background and events that had transpired during the course of the campaign. In this way it was easier for both myself and the DM; she fortunately liked the idea, and would be able to build plots and encounters, keeping in mind the eventual necessity for a level-draining undead to smack my cleric around. Meanwhile, I knew I already had the go-ahead, and would only have to be patient. Ideally, an agreement of this type can be made between DM and Player, but we all know how harsh reality can be.


Cecil

 

[green slime]

Originally posted by Tonguez

... be arrested for doing perverted things with green slime

I most strongly object to being mistreated in this fashion! I'll sue! I'm warning you!

Seesh, the things I have to put up with on these boards...

 

[MerricB]

Prestige Classes provide an impetus for the DM and players to develop their campaign world together.

If a player wants to play a Shadow Dancer, then the DM is given motivation for coming up with what the Shadow Dancers actually are.

The DM must retain the ability to say "No Shadow Dancers in my campaign because they don't fit", but trying to come up with a rationale first improves the campaign greatly. More creativity is required!

Cheers!

 

[jdavis]

A big thing here is that the players and the DM have to be on the same page as to how the game will be played. I have seen a lot of great ideas for working Prestige Classes in but if the "players just want to go fight something with their cool new powers" then they really don't want to take the time to find a tutor and learn cool new powers, they want to get the prereq's and move on with it. You try and force them to role play it and you are just going to make trouble.

The best time to work in how PrC's will be used is before the game has ever started, if the DM and the players get on the same page on what is expected then there will be a lot fewer problems later. If a PrC is not going to be allowed amke sure everybody knows about it from the start, if PrC's will have a role playing element then sit down with the players and discuss how it will work before the game ever gets going. Getting a little input from the players beforehand can stop allot of problems later.