Preview: Brutal Ability

[Evil DM]

Hi folks,

I just wonder about the new Execution Axe from here: Preview

Or to be more specicif, about the brutal property which says:

Brutal: A brutal weapon’s minimum damage is higher than that of a normal weapon. When rolling the weapon’s damage, reroll any die that displays a value equal to or lower than the brutal value given for the weapon. Reroll the die until the value shown exceeds the weapon’s brutal value, and then use the new value

I hope I get my mathematics right this time.

A d12 has an expectation value of E = 6.5

If I take now the brutal property into account this value rises to E = 7.5

Why?
Because from the former 12 outcomes (1,2,...,12) you have only 10 left because 1 and 2 are no more possible. These are equally possible. So by the definition from the expectation value I get:
E = 1/10 * (3 + 4 + ... + 12) = 75 / 10 = 7.5

So the Execution Axe costs the same as the Greataxe from the PH, has the same stats (okay, 2lbs more ) and does 1 point of damage more.

Is the power creep beginning?

Cheers, Evil DM.

 

[77IM]

Maybe it's a superior weapon, requiring a feat to use? The article does not say.

-- 77IM

 

[Vayden]

One assumes that the Execution Axe will be an exotic weapon like the Bastard Sword. That's the usual trade-off for a weapon that's just flat better.

Edit: Ninja'ed, and also I forgot that they're "superior" weapons now not "exotic". Doh!

 

[Evil DM]

Yes, this is a point that the weapon seems to be an exotic weapon.

But then on the other hand I do not understand this rerolling mechanism. As I said in another thread before: I like the 4th edition to reduce the amount of dice rolling (e.g. the mechanics for criticals).

So why now again increase the rolling? For the flavor? Why not just say: You got a d12+1 to roll!

Cheers, Evil DM.

 

[Mengu]

I'm guessing it's a Superior two-handed weapon. So far there haven't been anything but complaining about two-handed weapons, so I'd consider this an improvement rather than power creep.

Oddly, they could have called the weapon 1d10+2, which yields the exact same probability distribution. So 2[W] would be 2d10+4, etc...

 

[Klaus]

Hi folks,

I just wonder about the new Execution Axe from here: Preview

Or to be more specicif, about the brutal property which says:


I hope I get my mathematics right this time.

A d12 has an expectation value of E = 6.5

If I take now the brutal property into account this value rises to E = 7.5

Why?
Because from the former 12 outcomes (1,2,...,12) you have only 10 left because 1 and 2 are no more possible. These are equally possible. So by the definition from the expectation value I get:
E = 1/10 * (3 + 4 + ... + 12) = 75 / 10 = 7.5

So the Execution Axe costs the same as the Greataxe from the PH, has the same stats (okay, 2lbs more ) and does 1 point of damage more.

Is the power creep beginning?

Cheers, Evil DM.

Easier to house-rule:

A Brutal weapon's [W] dice that come up lower than the Brutal value are instead considered to be of that value.

So a d12 weapon (average 6.5) that is Brutal 2 has an average of 7.

 

[Syrsuro]

Yes, this is a point that the weapon seems to be an exotic weapon.

But then on the other hand I do not understand this rerolling mechanism. As I said in another thread before: I like the 4th edition to reduce the amount of dice rolling (e.g. the mechanics for criticals).

So why now again increase the rolling? For the flavor? Why not just say: You got a d12+1 to roll!

Cheers, Evil DM.

It should be a d10+2.

You have 10 possible outcomes (3,4,...12), each with equal probability. Thus it is identical to a d10+2.

But if one assumes that brutal can occur in any value, and on any weapon then despite the fact that brutal 2 on a d12 can be simulated with a different die roll, that will not always be the case and sometimes you will need that reroll mechanism to get the right result.

And fewer die rolls is not necessarily the only goal. I think that d12, reroll 1s and 2s is far cooler and more fun (despite mathematical identity) than d10+2. One is just a damage bonus, the other lets you reroll those 1s and 2s, making you appreciate your weapon every time it happens. Its a psychological difference, not a mathematical one. But its still a real one.

Carl

 

[abyssaldeath]

Because it gives you a second chance to roll max.

I like it. I was wondering how they were going to give superior weapons more flavor. Take the maul for instance it does 2d6 already. I think it would be great to see a great maul do 2d6 with brutal 3 or maybe 4. With the way powers work I think this would be more balancing then bumping the damage die.

Note: This my opinion. No math has actually been done.

 

[deleteme123456]

I'm guessing it's a Superior two-handed weapon. So far there haven't been anything but complaining about two-handed weapons, so I'd consider this an improvement rather than power creep.

Oddly, they could have called the weapon 1d10+2, which yields the exact same probability distribution. So 2[W] would be 2d10+4, etc...

The problem with 2[W] being 2d10+4 is that it is far far easier to just say [W] is always just the damage dice for your weapon, no additional pluses, and then all pluses are added at the end. That and the numerous other things like fun factor, other brutal values, other d's with brutal (well, really d4 seems to be the problem here... hm, I want a Vorpal Dagger with Brutal 3, please...)

Then there's the gauntlets of destruction. Assume that they provide no additional benefit when using a Brutal weapon since you'd already reroll the 1. Now if your brutal 2 d12 is a 1d10+2 and you have gauntlets, you are improving your damage (slightly).

 

[Syrsuro]

Because it gives you a second chance to roll max.

I like it. I was wondering how they were going to give superior weapons more flavor. Take the maul for instance it does 2d6 already. I think it would be great to see a great maul do 2d6 with brutal 3 or maybe 4. With the way powers work I think this would be more balancing then bumping the damage die.

Note: This my opinion. No math has actually been done.

Oooo. Brutal on a weapon that does more than 1 die of damage. Hmmm.

(And you are not statistically any more likely to roll max this way than any other way. It also gives you a second chance to roll a 3).

Carl