prices getting a little nuts?

[Wulf Ratbane]

Not having read all the responses, it looks like most people are missing the original point; it's not that monkius can't afford to buy the books, it's that prices are now to the point where he's not impulse buying them the way he used to. That translates into less volume of material moved. Is the increase in price enough to offset that to turn the same profit? Probably not, because folks around here are saying that the price is a reflection of the cost of printing and distributing the book. It's entirely possible that the market is slowly dying if it's not priced to move impulse buyers anymore.

I think publishers are responding with price increases because the market is shrinking, not the other way around.

If you know you're pretty much going to sell 2000 units (to pick a mid-range number) no matter where you price it, then obviously you're better off trying to actually make a profit on those 2000 sales. There's so much product in the market right now, lowering the price isn't going to increase your sales with end-users.

So publishers are trying to raise that sell-through rate. That's why you are seeing the quality start to improve across the board. Of course, this is yet another reason that the price is going up. Some companies are actually-- GASP!-- hiring editors! And using decent quality artists!

Personally I think the price increases are a bit of long-overdue "boiling the frog." They'll go up, slowly but surely.

Wulf

 

[NLP]

I would also add that game prices have really seemed to escalate over the last 3 years. When 3E first came out everything was around $20.00. The 3 core books were $20.00, the follow up books were $20.00, and most of the support books published by third-party companies were around $20.00. 3 years later and now it is nearly impossible to find anything less than $30.00. Now granted maybe production quality has increased dramatically over the last 3 years, and maybe inflation has gone through the roof in the last 3 years, but it really does not seem to be the case to me.

What I think we are seeing is a glut of publishers, and because of that smaller sales volumes per book. Because the publishers are no longer selling 20k of everything they are marking up the price of the books to maintain profitability on only 5-10k of sales. So instead of paying $25.00 for a book we are paying $32.00+.

I have nothing against publishers making money, but if I am going to spend $75.00 a month on gaming material I would much rather support 2-3 game companies by buying 4-5 products then to have to spend that money on only 2 books. By not producing more $20.00 or less books the publishers are taking away any impulse sales, and thus potential new customers, because people are not going to throw away $35.00+ on a whim.

As a consumer, I can only say that I really miss the gaming market from only 3 years ago.

 

[DaveMage]

As a consumer, I can only say that I really miss the gaming market from only 3 years ago.

I have mixed feelings on that. On the one hand, before d20/OGL, I was able to afford every D&D product that was produced. As each one came out, I would buy it and the strain on my wallet was minimal. Now, since there are literally (at least) two dozen D&D-compatible products that seem to come out every month from various publishers, I can no longer have everything. I miss that.

On the other hand, the amazing amount of creative talent that can now produce D&D-compatible products through the various publishers is also not something I'd want to see go away. I don't miss not having the selection that I do now.

So there you are.

 

[gariig]

Just to make it a point, the core books at $20 was Wizard's being nice to all of the 2E people and allowing you to upgrade to 3E for cheap. Ryan Dancey said the Core Books should have been $30 but the Evil Wizard's was not so Evil and let you have them for $20.

 

[DanMcS]

GAMERS ARE CHEAPSKATES.

...

i am consistently amazed at the complaints over book prices and prices of gaming items in general. when i was selling die rollers for $15 or $20 (i cannot remember) i got more chastising emails from people saying i was trying to "rip off the gaming community" than i did from buyers!

frugal is one thing, cheap is another.

You can't make claims about what people are willing to pay for books based on what they are willing to pay for a bizzaro niche product like a "die roller", whatever that is. Is it like the little cups that come with Yahtzee? Whatever, that's a super-specialty product in an already small market. Most people, when they need to roll dice, just use their hand

 

[alsih2o]

You can't make claims about what people are willing to pay for books based on what they are willing to pay for a bizzaro niche product like a "die roller", whatever that is. Is it like the little cups that come with Yahtzee? Whatever, that's a super-specialty product in an already small market. Most people, when they need to roll dice, just use their hand

i think you may have missed my point. i think most gamers are so price sensitive that i had people who did not want one emailing me just to chastise me on the price. emails like "i wouldn't buy one no matter what the price, but that price is too high"

and yes, it is the same thing, $20 for a meal or a book, many, many gamers see almost any price as too expensive, and then complain about how they hate pdf's, the one spot where you can get super cheap materials.

and let's not forget that gamebooks themselves are a "bizzaro niche product"

 

[NLP]

On the other hand, the amazing amount of creative talent that can now produce D&D-compatible products through the various publishers is also not something I'd want to see go away. I don't miss not having the selection that I do now.

I do not want to see those companies/selections go away either, but when I am spending $38.00 for Nyambe, or $40.00 for Dragonlance, or $45.00 for Babylon 5, or $50.00 for Stargate SG-1 I am not spending $20.00 on the Artificer's Handbook, for example. Gamers are not and endless well of money. For every expensive book released by one company it means another company is forced to lose a sale. Eventually all those second and third tier publishers are going to suffer from those lost sales, and then they will be gone. Someone needs to be producing books for the non-millionaire gamers and college kids who do not have a $200.00 a month to spend on expensive books.

 

[Vigilance]

I would also add that game prices have really seemed to escalate over the last 3 years. When 3E first came out everything was around $20.00. The 3 core books were $20.00, the follow up books were $20.00, and most of the support books published by third-party companies were around $20.00. 3 years later and now it is nearly impossible to find anything less than $30.00. Now granted maybe production quality has increased dramatically over the last 3 years, and maybe inflation has gone through the roof in the last 3 years, but it really does not seem to be the case to me.

I love this.

In the first place, once again, you cannot compare any 3rd party publisher or product to the PHB! They *knew* it was going to sell tens of thousands of copies over a long period of time. This makes their costs *lower*. Also, since the PHB is a doorway product, WOTC was willing to go with a slim profit margin since they would get you on the "come back" (when you bought a splat book).

Secondly, I love the way posters who think prices are way too high just gloss over "the quality has gone way up".

Those books you loved from 3 years ago had very little art.

When I look at my beloved 70's D&D modules, the art is laughable. I could have drawn these things.

It's just the market.

I understand 50 dollars isnt an impulse purchase. But asking the publisher to make .05 a copy of a book he worked months on doesn't seem to be the answer either.

Publishers and writers (especially writers) are not driving around in chauffered Bentlys laughing about how they are cleaning up on their game publishing careers.

Chuck

 

[DanMcS]

Secondly, I love the way posters who think prices are way too high just gloss over "the quality has gone way up".

Those books you loved from 3 years ago had very little art.

It gets glossed over because we're buying game books, not art books. Woohoo, it's full color; it's an adventure, I'm going to run it once or twice, the art is practically valueless. Art wonks love to ramble about how art sets mood, but they're just art wonks, you'll have to ignore them. The writing sets the mood, if it's any good. Gamers buy game books for ideas or mechanics or plots, not for the pretty pictures. If art is the reason prices are going up, then publishers should try doing products with solid ideas instead of glossy full color.

For instance, look at the first couple products from Bad Axe, the HoHF books. Half-sized, black and white interior, these are still the best d20 books I've bought, bar none. Compare that to, say, FFG Dragonstar hardcovers, which had that 32 page full-color section in the front of an otherwise black and white book, for no apparent reason. Pretty good books, probably would have been cheaper if they hadn't had that strange glossy insert.

 

[Vigilance]

Art wonks love to ramble about how art sets mood, but they're just art wonks, you'll have to ignore them.

I guarantee you publishers would not be moving toward full color interiors if it did not translate into sales.

I know you think we hear one good review of M&M and run out to make everything full color... but really publishers look at their sales, and bigger more expensive books sell better by and large.

And again- the two products specifically named as "nuts" on price, Stargate and B5 have *very* expensive licenses to pay for.

The consumer is not getting ripped off. If anything prices are too low, but there is a vocal segment of the gaming population that got White Plume Mountain for 5 bucks, and think no gaming book should ever cost more than that.

For any reason.

Chuck