Doghead Thirteen
First Post
I'd love to see this done without hand-waving.
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Primitive vs Advanced Magic
- Thread starter DMH
- Start date
Andor
First Post
The best treatment of this I've seen was in the World Tree game which actually gave pretty detailed descriptions of how magic has progressed over the ages and in fact there has recently been a new magical breakthrough.
The Night of Madness by L. Watt-Evans shows a new type of magic coming into the world (and is a wonderful treatment on the whys and howfors of mages guilds.)
The Night of Madness by L. Watt-Evans shows a new type of magic coming into the world (and is a wonderful treatment on the whys and howfors of mages guilds.)
the Jester
Legend
You could look at the changes in magic over the various editions of dnd that way. After all, there was a time when phantasmal force - now silent image - was a 3rd level spell.
Jondor_Battlehammer
First Post
Primative magic - magic as is.
Advanced magic - meta-magic feats are available.
High magic - eliminate the level bump from meta-magic.
Or you could look at the spell lists themselves.
Primative - Ranger and Druid. Most of thier spells deal with animals, plants, healing. "Primative", basic humanoid culture needs.
High - Clerics and paladins. Much of their magic deals with spiritual matters, far greater healing powers, and spells which greatly benifit a community. Very fitting a pre industrial society.
Ascendant - Wizards. Most arcane magic mimics technologhy. Flight, teleport, creating permanant items from nothing, and manipulating non-natural energies like force and anti magic.
To really play up the difference, you would have to tweek the lists a little bit, but the potential is right there.
Advanced magic - meta-magic feats are available.
High magic - eliminate the level bump from meta-magic.
Or you could look at the spell lists themselves.
Primative - Ranger and Druid. Most of thier spells deal with animals, plants, healing. "Primative", basic humanoid culture needs.
High - Clerics and paladins. Much of their magic deals with spiritual matters, far greater healing powers, and spells which greatly benifit a community. Very fitting a pre industrial society.
Ascendant - Wizards. Most arcane magic mimics technologhy. Flight, teleport, creating permanant items from nothing, and manipulating non-natural energies like force and anti magic.
To really play up the difference, you would have to tweek the lists a little bit, but the potential is right there.
jefgorbach
First Post
As mentioned above, the Netheril material would perhaps be the "best" source to begin with, for although the legendary 10th level spells were banned when its age ended, the chronology shows when many of today's spells were first invented ... giving an idea of how the existing spells/magic were discovered and spread into common use over time.
Moonstone Spider
First Post
Technology and magic are really quite opposed in nature, at least in most systems. Magic tends to get weaker as time passes, the old magic is the really awesome stuff while modern mages are just amateurs. Look at how many settings have a "golden age" (Including the default DnD, notice how artifacts are basically really old magic items nobody knows how to make anymore) where a wizard on every corner was able to levitate entire continents and the higher-level magi played ping-pong with the moon every friday night. Of course then they got hubris and sank Atlantis under the sea and now everything sucks. . .DMH said:
But seriously, there's no reason magic wouldn't advance over time if that fits your setting. It's just the reverse of the more traditional setting.
Jolly Giant
First Post
I once let a party come across some old stone tablets with primitive versions of classic spells carved on them. Really ancient, really huge slabs of stone with large writing; as if the runic inscriptions were made by giants.
The old versions of the spells were generally weaker and more unpredictable than the familiar "modern" equivalents. IIRC, there wes a Fireball spell with medium range and a reduced area of effect that dealt 1d12 per 2 casterlevels (max 5d12), and a short range Magic Missile that dealt 1d6 per 2 casterlevels (max 5d6 at 10th level).
The party couldn't get the stones with them, but the wizard insisted they stay there long enough for him to copy the spells. Later on, an arcane order paid them a good deal of money to learn the location of these ancient arcane relics. The players thought it was a pretty cool form of treasure to find.
The old versions of the spells were generally weaker and more unpredictable than the familiar "modern" equivalents. IIRC, there wes a Fireball spell with medium range and a reduced area of effect that dealt 1d12 per 2 casterlevels (max 5d12), and a short range Magic Missile that dealt 1d6 per 2 casterlevels (max 5d6 at 10th level).
The party couldn't get the stones with them, but the wizard insisted they stay there long enough for him to copy the spells. Later on, an arcane order paid them a good deal of money to learn the location of these ancient arcane relics. The players thought it was a pretty cool form of treasure to find.
kigmatzomat
Hero
Ummm..... Adepts vs. Wizard/Sorceror/Cleric. Adepts have access to power but it grows slowly as they are individually feeling out their way rather than having a codified and efficient knowledge base. It's the difference between constructing something using experience & gut instinct vs. established material science and mechanics.
"Advanced" magic isn't really any different from "primitive" magic except that "Advanced" has a longer, shared history. The magic wielded by an individual "primitive" elf may, in fact, be superior to an "advanced" human simply because the elf's personal experience equates to several human generations' worth of research.
EarthDawn had multiple magic systems: raw casting, spell pattern objects, grimoire casting, blood magic and matrix magic. Raw is the most powerful, fastest, and dangerous. Matrix magic is the most refined, complex, safe but slow.
"Advanced" magic isn't really any different from "primitive" magic except that "Advanced" has a longer, shared history. The magic wielded by an individual "primitive" elf may, in fact, be superior to an "advanced" human simply because the elf's personal experience equates to several human generations' worth of research.
EarthDawn had multiple magic systems: raw casting, spell pattern objects, grimoire casting, blood magic and matrix magic. Raw is the most powerful, fastest, and dangerous. Matrix magic is the most refined, complex, safe but slow.
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