Problem needs Advice

[iamtheend]

I am playing in a campaign and within my party there are 2 others. One is as experiences or a little bit less experienced than I am with D&D but the other one at least by what he says has been very experienced with D&D.

At times we have to argue rules such as how a feat works and it usually turns out he is wrong. If I open up the book and show him it seems quite obvious he is annoyed with me. Other times I leave it alone and after our session it turns out he is completely wrong.

The DM in this situation I feel is being taken advantage of sometimes due to the fact he is new to doing this and is still learning.

We're playing a gestalt game which none of us knew the existence until about a year or so ago when this said player told us. So its strange that someone who originally mentioned this play style to us seems to either be confused on how it works or he is just cheating and thinks no one will notice. Here is what I'm talking about...

Previously he was using "class features" that were game breaking and I confronted the DM about it. He remade his character for our next session which didn't include that "Class feature" anymore. Now it seems he is taking a prestige class as a normal class even without having the prerequisites.

Like there is a chance that I don't know some minor detail but this player is willing to share his character with anyone but me. I like to have everyone in my party be as strong and as helpful to us as possible but I don't want someone being cheatingly godly and adjusting the CR to something everyone else can't handle.

So what should I do? Should I be upfront and ask the player if there is a misunderstanding? Should I talk to the DM and suggest he take a better look at every player (even if he is not experiences enough)? Or should I allow this to go on?

We rarely get to play and this player can hold any game session hostage because the DM feels he needs his expertise to play. So this can all backfire on me and ruin everything. Any advice? Anyone go through something similar?

 

[Gilladian]

Talk to the DM in private. Find out how he feels about the situation. Make sure he's on board with any decisions you make about how to confront this player. In fact, you really should alert the third player, as well. Get their opinion. Since the potential cheater seems willing to let the third player see his character sheet, maybe that player can examine it and confirm or deny whether he's got prerequisites for what he's doing, etc...

Then everyone needs to sit down, have a chat, follow through on the decision that was made, and see what happens. Most likely, potential cheater will blow his top and essentially either confirm his cheating, or leave. Or both.

My suggestion is that afterwards (if he agrees to remain in the party), the campaign should be reformed, without the use of Gestalt characters. They're very powerful, and rife with chances for abuse. With three players, there's really no need to use them. You can survive with a party of three (I suggest a cleric fitted up to fight, a wizard, and a rogue with good archery skills). The DM should simply tailor adventures to avoid pitting the PCs against things they can't handle in some way (by going around it, tricking it, finding a weakness, or simply fleeing).

If the potential cheater finally admits that he's not as rules-competent as he's been saying, and that he just doesn't understand gestalt, then you need to drop them anyway.

If he leaves, restart the campaign with two players and each run two characters. Not as easy, but at least it gives a balanced party. NO third player who so unbalances the game is worth the trouble they cause...

 

[kitcik]

I basically agree with the above.

A lot of people may just say "find a new group" but that is often easier said than done. Presumably these are your friends.

The best thing, after you speak to the DM and other player privately, may be just to note issues at each session, tell the DM afterwards, and let him confront the player at the start of the next session - "I looked into some of those abilities you used last session and I found..."

If this goes on for more than 2 sessions and you still keep finding stuff, then have a group confrontation. Hopefully it won't come to this as the player will see the DM is actually checking and will play on the up and up.

On a side note, I've always wondered what enjoyment someone can gain from cheating at D&D. I mean, fudging a die roll to save your favorite character I can see (I don't condone it, but I understand it), but giving yourself overpowered abilities seems kinda pointless - the idea is to use what you have to overcome reasonable obstacles. Just stomping on everything is boring.

 

[anest1s]

• Cheating hurts only himself - if you ignore it, it will make no difference to you. If you feel Lawful report the cheating, otherwise just let it go.

• If none else thinks its a problem, then why would you. Let them and/or the rest of the party realize the problem by themselves. They will, sooner or later. Use irony if you can't stop yourself from complaining. By annoying everyone for someone who cheats, you become more annoying than him, overshadowing him.

• If the DM cares, at some point he will do something. Maybe he will start fudging against the one who cheats, or something worse. If he doesn't care, there is a bigger problem than one player cheating (biased DM). Just let him know that a) Someone is cheating and b) Its spoils the fun for you.

• Also keep in mind that there is a possibility that you are wrong before you decide what to do.

 

[Greenfield]

Sadly, other players' cheating *does* hurt you. The DM has to increase the power of the encounters to balance the cheater's tactics, and that makes it harder for your character.

Additionally, it bleeds the challenge from the game and dilutes any joy of achievement.

I suspect your friend liked playing the Gestalt variant because it made his characters more powerful, and that was what he was after. Selective reading (or mis reading) of rules is another symptom of the power-gamer/munchkin.

Sadly, you can't prove the power gamer "wrong", at least not in their mind. Being the "best" is their priority, their focus. You can slap their character down as hard as you like, and all you'll do is convince them that they need even more power.

What should you do? That's up to you. Confronting him all the time may turn your game times into a contentious, stress filled waste of time. It may ruin the fun for everyone. On the other hand, if you don't confront him it may ruin everyone's fun anyway.

If you think you can change the situation then go ahead and catch him when he cheats. Call him on his selective use of the rules and cast Dispel BS on him as often as need be. Listen to his "innocent" suggestions and requests with suspicion, and encourage the DM to make "No" the default answer.

Hopefully he'll learn. But be ready to have the DM side with him, and to have your game make that sad journey down the yellow brick road to munchkin land.

 

[Sekhmet]

"Follow the yellow brick road." It leads to the Wizard, who will help you in your quest.

In this case, the Wizard is your DM. Have your DM examine the character sheet in question and make final rulings on it - if it isn't possible, make sure the DM understands that it's corrupting the integrity of the game. Restrictions are placed on PrC's for a reason.

Whichever way your DM decides to rule, you're pretty much stuck with his decision.

 

[iamtheend]

Big thing is I hate seeming like some dude out to get other players and prove to them they're wrong or something. Just things happen and I sit there dumbfounded on how they are doing it. I don't want to waste a lot of time during gameplay discussing the rules especially if I don't have the specific rulebook in from of me and know exactly which page to turn to.

I think I am going to talk to the other player first and see how he feels about allowing this to continue or not. Eventually I feel the DM will become Savvy and I won't be involved in tattling.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

The thing with Gestalt is, following the RAW isn't enough, it's too easy to break. I really love gestalt games, but the DM needs to enforce his own houserules to iron out the kinks of what's in Unearthed Arcana so people aren't cheesing the multiclassing and dual progression prestige classes and such.

I know it's not what you asked for, but consider these houserules I used for my previous gestalt game (the ability score stuff relies on using point buy of a certain amount, so that part may not be useful):

[sblock]In the Gestalt campaign, there are no favored classes, and also no multiclassing. Simply Class x // Class y. Prestige classes are available, but you can only have one total, and dual progression classes (mystic theurge, eldritch knight, etc...) are banned. A prestige class occupies the side of the gestalt that met the requirements to enter it. (See next post)

Dual Progression feats (such as Devoted Tracker and Song of the White Raven) are allowed, since these feats often give other benefits aside from the progression of class features that might still be useful. However, your effective level for any class feature or ability can still not exceed your HD, even with such feats.

Each character has six ability scores, which are purchased with point buy. After that, racial modifiers are added. The points costs are as follows, 34 points total:

Each 8 costs 0 points
Each 9 costs 1 point
Each 10 costs 2 points
11 costs 3 points
12 costs 4 points
13 costs 5 points
14 costs 6 points
15 costs 8 points
16 costs 10 points
17 costs 13 points
18 costs 16 points

If for some reason you have a non-ability (notated as "--") or it is always considered 0, you must spend 2 points on that score, as if you were paying for a 10.

For races/templates with a Level Adjustment (LA), you do not reduce your level. Instead, you reduce your starting point buy as follows. Racial HD take up "one side" of the gestalt.

LA +1: 26 points
LA +2: 18 points
LA +3: 11 points
LA +4: 00 points

For leveling up, the following apply:
Hit Points: Use the better HD at each level up, and add to your total hp. The first HD is maxed, after that, you can either roll (rerolling 1's) or take 3/4 the max result, as shown below (you also add your Con modifier at each level up):
∙d4: 3 hp each level
∙d6: 4 hp on even levels, 5 hp on odd levels
∙d8: 6 hp each level
∙d10: 7 hp on even levels, 8 hp on odd levels
∙d12: 9 hp each level

Skills: At each individual level, use the class with the higher amount to determine skill points gained.

Saves: Tally the base save bonus of each save on each side individually, using the best value for each. A Fighter 8 // Rogue 6/Assassin 2 has base saves of Fort +6, Reflex +8, Will +2.

BAB: As with saves, keep an overall tally for each side, and use whichever side gives the higher number at each level up. A Fighter 9/Kensai 4 // Monk 13 has BAB +12 on the first side, and BAB +8 on the second side, so his BAB is +12.


Entering a Prestige Class: Any class feature or caster/manifester/initiator requirements must be met by the class on the side you are multiclassing. A Cleric / Wizard would need to enter Archmage on his Wizard side, for example.[/sblock]

You don't have to limit to only two classes and one prestige class specifically, but you should try to restrict how much they can hop around, as it's twice as easy to do so in gestalt. Really, two base classes should be enough to realize most character concepts, with a prestige class or two to add odd or uncommon abilities to finish fleshing it out. You also don't have ot have fixed hit point rules, but I rather like it that way.

 

[iamtheend]

I ended up seeing the DM today and just explained that I don't want to be some tattle tail and rat out people I suspect are taking advantage of him. I said he should ask all the players including myself to explain their characters at least a little bit and to give all the proper rule books to give insight to their characters.

The main problem is that since this other player is so experienced that the DM doesn't question what he does giving him the "he's right and I'm wrong" deal if something is argued. So he trusts the player even using rule books outside of the DM's reach that he is doing things correctly.

The player has taken ranks in a prestige class that is a minimum of level 6 for the prerequisites and we're under that level. He has a few levels so far in the prestige class. None of his class ranks including the prestige class offers any spell casting (At Least that I know of) and he is using magic.

An example of how things got terrible in a past game and it ruined the experience so bad that for over a year we didn't play. A player found a homebrew feat that allowed him to put his Dex bonus into Ranged attacks while doing other things to his character to make him crazy. The DM for whatever reason not thinking about the rest of the party wanted to teach him a lesson. All the enemies we faced had ranged weapons that dealt their dex bonus to damage. Many of us were slaughtered while those who could appropriately deal with such a scenario were left alive to continue being overpowered.

 

[kitcik]

That campaign is going nowhere.

I suggest running a new game that none of you have played before. Maybe Castles & Crusades, which is like D&D v1.5. Core only. Make sure the DM bothers to learn the rules at least as well as everyone else.

Or volunteer to DM yourself.

Otherwise, this group may die and it always sucks when your group dies.